My BackUps Have Always Been .38s-- They Still Are, Today. . .

[Matt G]

Well, my P.D. had another qualification the other day, and I opted to qualify some off-duty and backup guns. One was the first BUG I carried-- a KelTec P11 9mm that I had gotten a sweetheart deal on about 7 years ago. At the time, I was blown away by the fact that I could get 11 rounds of 9mm in a pistol that weighed under a pound and was "so tiny." I've carried it a lot off-duty, and it's logged many shifts as my backup gun.

Then I went through a rather stupid period for a year, when I quit wearing my vest. I borrowed my Dad's old S&W M37 Chief's Special Airweight .38 Spl with the bootgrips on it, and found that it traveled well in an ankle carry. While it was only 5 rounds of .38 Spl, it was more organic in shape and didn't print like the P11 did. It was more comfortable in my pocket, and got carried for off-duty, too. Finally, I came back to my senses and went back to wearing body armor, and the P11 went back into use as my BUG. I sighed and told my dad I'd bring him back his Chief's Special, and he said "Keep it. It's yours." Touching, really-- the man's worn this pistol since he bought it new around 1980, and has plumb worn the blue and anodizing right off of much of it. Still- it shoots like a champion.

Then, this summer, I got a KelTec P3AT. It's about half a pound unloaded, half the width of the P11, and holds 7 rds of .380. I'm pretty sure that the guys at KelTec have a practicioner in black magic on their engineering staff, because the pistol is the same size and weight as their diminutive P32, and kicks not appreciably more. I forget I've even got a BUG on-- it's so utterly comfortable.

So after an uneventful and pleasurable BUG qualification, I cleaned my BUG/off-duty guns, and realized that they all three were .355/.357 cal pistols under a pound. Come to think of it, I could technically carry them as primary duty guns under dept regulations!! (Don't let the brass read THAT!) Technically, my duty gun must be .380 or higher in caliber.

There are those who carry mouseguns as their off-duty/BUGs. I've nothing against the practice, in theory. But I've always carried an intermediate caliber for the purpose. How wonderful it is that even a man of my own EXTREMELY limited means has that option of picking from one of three sub-pound guns for that role out of his armory when setting out for the day/evening.

 

[sm]

No experience with the P-3AT.

Plenty with the P-11 and Model 37. For me , a civilian these two are so easy to carry and I shoot them well. Heck - I just like the old Smith J frames anyway. The bluing does not wear - that is called "character" .

 

[Kahr carrier]

Nice Trio -I like that 37 with the bobbed hammer,That was cool of your dad to let you have it.

 

[Matt G]

Yep, I love that bobbed hammer. When our qualification goes to slow-fire at 20 yards and even 50 yards, I'm still on target. Why? Because, gentle reader, I "cheat." While the other officer with a 5-shooter (very nice Taurus Total Titanium with a good trigger, BTW) is trying to slowly DA his rounds at that distance, I start the hammer back DA, then thumb it back the rest of the way and shoot SA. At 150 feet, I've no shame in doing that with a 2" barrel using duty loads out of an airweight J-Frame. Besides, my speed is still pretty good doing it that way-- I'm finishing my strings just as fast or faster than him.

At 100 yards, I can hit a man silohuette most of the time with it.

 

[Greybeard]

Looks like a solid threesome - if they all go bang *every* time.

I've had an "itch" for the .380 Kel-Tec since they came out, but am still waiting to see how they wring out, or really, for an extra $300 to fly into my wallet.

A lady friend who lives up Copper Canyon Road got one a couple of months back. Several of us have put approx. 4 boxes thru it so far with about that many malfs. (No malfs whatsover in first box.) FWIW, we chronoed the thing last week and, IIRC, had about 870 fps with Win. white box ...

 

[Coronach]

You shoot strings in OD/BUG quals at 150'?

Wow.

I think the furthest we get away is 45'

I can keep all 5 in center mass with my 640 at that distance, but I sincerely doubt I could do it 150'.

Yikes.

Mike

 

[Matt G]

We don't do it all the time, Mike. We've got a rather sadistic firearms coordinator who likes to have us shoot the same course with our BUGs as with our main duty guns. He'll occasionally have us do a token string of 5, or two strings of 3, from 50. When I write a course for fire for qualification, I will always put us back to 20 at the minimum maximum (did that make sense?), but also will try to get a string at 50 as well, just so that the guys know what that looks like, and hopefully will at least CONSIDER practicing sight picture and trigger squeeze on their own time in anticipation. There are few enough shots that you could throw them all off at the long range and still pass with flying colors.

This last time, seeing as how it was a special off-duty/BUG qual, he actually just had us shoot the "Chief's Course." We only fired one string from 20 for our long range shots, and many were from 3 yards, 5 yards, and "interview distance." (Which he foolishly had us shoot last. NOTE: When you've been grouping your previous 46 shots in a nice tight pattern COM, firing your last two strings of two with the muzzle of your 2" Chief's Special a foot or less from the target will create enough muzzle blast to blow a nice pre-perforated palm-sized hunk of paper from the center of your target right out the back of the target backing!)

Greybeard: I tried to call you that day, man. No one answered at the range, and we almost got washed out before we finished at Quail Creek.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Good thread, Matt G - -

I was thinkin' that I could do an identical photo - - M37, P3AT, and - - OOoops, I'd have to borrow my P11 back from my wife. And, come to think of it, I got the KT .380 because she just totally absconded with my P32.

Oh, well, nice to know I have a backup when we go out to eat and all.

It's fun to shoot short guns at longer ranges. I can just vaguely picture a scenario where I'd want to keep some bad guy pinned down behind a car 'til the Tac Team arrives . . . . Plus, over the years, I've won several soft drink bets shooting a two-inch .38 at 100+ yards.

Best - - -

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, Johnny and Matt. Was that little M37 the one I knew as "Ratsy"?

Best.

 

[Greybeard]

Matt - DCSA range phone is kept on call-forwarding to my cell about 99% of the time, so it's anyone's guess where I was that day. For the next couple, I'll be answering the phone (or not) in Austin, then back Saturday for a packed class of CHLers ... FWIW, I took SBH up to Backwoods a couple of times last month and their relatively new 50-yard range appeared more popular than the 100 ... You might just need to take the snubby up there and show some of those very "public" rifle guys how to at least put 'em on the paper.

 

[Matt G]

Greybeard:

Looks like a solid threesome - if they all go bang *every* time.

Hey, that's the single most important feature of a carry gun, isn't it?
Yes, I found them all to be reliable, but I've found a couple of ammo preferances. As mentioned above, the P3AT does NOT like the Winchester FMJ truncated cone stuff (it doesn't extract the cases reliably with it, for some reason. Rim thickness variation, perhaps?), and another guy had all kinds of conniptions with Wolf (which I refuse to put in mine, anyhow. Not really a problem from a functional point of view-- who's going to carry Wolf as a duty load anyway?!?) with his P3AT. After a coupla hundred rounds, it's been flawless with other stuff, including Gold Dot.

The only thing I've found that the P11 doesn't like has been Sellier & Bellot. It may have just been that lot, but I had 3 or so fail to fire when shooting S&B through it. Apparently, the primers were too hard for the strikes. I'd never before nor since had that problem, but had several during that course of fire, which, naturally, was during my very first pistol qualification. Our firearms qualification guy was impressed with my quick slap/rack/bang FTF drill, but I could tell he was dubious about the pistol, which had always been flawless! I've just stopped shooting S&B through it, and no problems. (FWIW, I really like S&B rifle ammo-- good value.)

The M37 likes a wide variety of stuff. I've been carrying Gold Dot 125s in it because our P.D. had Gold Dots as the department standard, and I couldn't find a heavier Gold Dot .38 Spl load. I was excited about Gold Dot finally putting out a short-barrel round in 135, but have recently gathered that for backup, we can carry pretty much any factory round. I think I'm going to the good old Remington or Winchester 158 LSWCHP +P, to get the benefit from a .38. (there is absolutely NO benefit to a .38 Spl 125-- it comes out significantly slower than a 9mm 124. There are big benefits from a 158g .38, however.) Dad had discovered after many years of shooting a hot "practice" handload through it (158g SWC over 5g of Unique for middle to high 800s) that it creates some end-shake, and had to be tightened up. So I don't give it a steady diet of +P loads. Standard vel factory 130s and 148s I'll shoot through it all day long, though.

Steve, I dunno. Lemme find out. (Betting it was-- stand by for pictures.)

 

[Matt G]

Stephen A Camp: Yep. It's the same one. Dad said he thought it was "Ratso", after the Dustin Hoffman character in the movie Midnight Cowboy. He allows that it was beginning to look pretty ratty, what with all the abrasion from the snap and strap on the old Uncle Mike's nylon ankle rig he used to carry in so much. (Guess who's got that now?)

Yeah, It does show some wear:

 

[Matt G]

This is what we call. . .

. . . an "aftermarket finish."

Friends, after a quarter century of hard wear, a working gun can begin to show this kind of character:

Ugly? You bet. But here's the test: What gets dropped in my pocket the most when I'm going out? "Ratso." Do I have complete confidence in it? You bet. For 5 trigger pulls, I'm utterly confident.

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hahahhaha! Thanks, Matt. I thought I recognized the little dumpling.

Best.

 

[sm]

Matt G.

Thanks for sharing the history, the ammo preferences, and pics.

I don't care what anyone else thinks - that 37 has soul , character, and earned respect.

Reminds me of one I had....yours is better looking than that one of mine. Mine was kicked across a asphalt parking lot.( on purpose) Not a lined or checkered finish...gave it more character tho' .

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. Yes, I agree. "Honorable battle scars" are nothing to be ashamed of and
under bad circumstances that little revolver might just be beautiful.

Best.

 

[Tamara]

That picture made my nickel 37 cry.

 

[Coronach]

under bad circumstances that little revolver might just be beautiful.

Yeah, but under most others its still ugly as sin.

Seriously, though...its not like its gonna rust. And while such finish wear might also indicate other problems in a pawnshop gun, I have no doubts that everything else is just fine with it. "Marks of honest use" indeed. If you guys vouch for it, I'd use it. And thats what matters.

Now, I'd cringe at trying to get resale value out of it, but hey.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

Yeah, Tamara?

The problem is that the worn-black-over-silver look is commonly associated, in my experience, with ghetto-toted Ravens, Jennings and Lorcin products. I know that this is a world apart in terms of weapon quality and operator knowledge/care...but my first reaction was still a visceral "dude, what a POS gun."



Ratso indeed. Still, its cool.

Mike

 

[Matt G]

That picture made my nickel 37 cry.

Jealousy. That's what it is.

Tamara, even on that hunting trip in Georgia, I had that resolver in the front right pocket of my jeans the whole week. (And throughout a Transit Of Hell.)

Show me a "carry gun" with all of its original finish still on it and no patina, and I'll show you a gun that doesn't get carried a whole aweful lot.

 

[Coronach]

Tamara, even on that hunting trip in Georgia, I had that resolver in the front right pocket of my jeans the whole week. (And throughout a Transit Of Hell.)

Show me a "carry gun" with all of its original finish still on it and no patina, and I'll show you a gun that doesn't get carried a whole aweful lot.

*Mike looks from a picture of the revo, to this quote, and back again* This might say something about the conditions in your pants. I dunno. Thats all I'm gonna say.

Mike

 

[Tamara]

Jealousy. That's what it is.

Maybe. Compared to that 37, mine is downright unloved, living the cold and impersonal life of a museum exhibit; only being carried to parties and so forth.

Poor gun.

I should go shoot it today, just to let it know I still love it...

 

[1911Tuner]

.38s

Oh, the .38 Special is a wimp. The .38 has a dismal street record. The.38
is obsolete! Wheelguns are obsolete! Nobody who is truly tactical would
be caught with a .38 wheelie in their safe! yadda-yadda-yadda.

Not a thing wrong with a good .38 revolver. Not the caliber or the
platform that I'd choose for a primary weapon, though I wouldn't exactly
feel underarmed with one either. The .38 Special has stopped many a
bad guy in his tracks, and has sent many, many more on to glory for their
sins. Seen more than a few guys shoot a Smith M&P Model 10 who
I would NOT want to provoke into a fight.

Love revolvers! Just somethin' about that clickety-click as the cylinder indexes....

 

[Dienekes]

Gave my wife a M37 about 1976, and "we three" are still trucking along together, albeit with some high mileage. Bobbed the hammer in similar fashion early on and it still serves her well. It bucks and roars but she loves it and shoots it with considerable aplomb.

She got tired of loanng it to me so I finally got a 442 when S&W reintroduced them.

I have a pristine little M60 around the house that my daughter will probably wind up with when she gets tired of her M26 Glock

About the only thing more ubiquitous than a J frame is a K frame.

 

[joe sixpack]

Thanks for the story and pix, and not that I've been much of a revolver fan, but I do like that m37. Nice size and form coupled with years of "character".

cheers, ab