Either I'm getting less paranoid or more naive...

[JustinJ]

I just fail to envision the type of scenario in which a person with a concealed carry permit would need a BUG. Self defense shootings generally happen so fast there is simply no time to draw a BUG and if the opportunity does arise you probably have time to also make a quick exit.

I'm not saying it's impossible that a concealed carrier could need one but the chances are so remote that its just not a practical concern.

 

[k_dawg]

For personal SD, I prefer a good fast deploy knife than a BUG.

It also handles the situation if the thug gets close enough to grab your gun arm.

 

[allaroundhunter]

For personal SD, I prefer a good fast deploy knife than a BUG.

It also handles the situation if the thug gets close enough to grab your gun arm.

Choosing to use a knife during a gun-fight is always a bad idea. I carry a knife, and have training with them, but there are very few situations in which I would choose to use it over a firearm. If a BG has a hold of my gun arm, then yes, deploy the knife; but if my main gun goes down and I have a BUG and a knife to choose from....the BUG will get the call every time.

Heck, if my gun arm is grabbed in a struggle, then as soon as my knife is used to retain control of that arm and my firearm, I will draw my gun and will have no more use for my knife. No one wins a knife fight, so as soon as I can end the knife fighting and make it a gunfight on my terms, you bet I will.

 

[oneounceload]

Simple question to ask yourself, - since you say you have lived there your whole life - how many times have you actually been assaulted/robbed/mugged? How many times have you ALMOST been robbed/assaulted/robbed? How many times has your gun prevented any of those? If the answer is that you have never experienced any of those, then you are probably good with a primary only

Don't start to fall into false paranoia about the sky falling and look seriously and realistically at the numbers and your personal bad experiences. It is real easy to get yourself hyped to the point you never leave your house or you feel you need a Hummer with a M2 to go to the store - but real life says otherwise for 350 million folks every day

 

[Guillermo]

while admittedly not on point...why will you never move?

Instead of "going down with the ship" why not find a nicer place to live?

 

[Skribs]

Simple question to ask yourself, - since you say you have lived there your whole life - how many times have you actually been assaulted/robbed/mugged? How many times have you ALMOST been robbed/assaulted/robbed? How many times has your gun prevented any of those? If the answer is that you have never experienced any of those, then you are probably good with a primary only

What does the chance of being attacked have to do with the amount of firepower I will need if attacked? When people are attacked in my town, it's often a group of attackers.

Instead of "going down with the ship" why not find a nicer place to live?

Parts of town are nice; parts are not. If I moved to a town where everything was nice, it still wouldn't be that far from where BGs live, and they could still ambush me in the "nice" part of town. However, I've lived here my whole life. It's home. I can't stand the weather pretty much anywhere else, I have a horrible sense of direction (so I lose 24 years of learning my way around town), and it would simply be a lot of work to uproot myself when I don't even want to.

 

[Bushpilot]

I just fail to envision the type of scenario in which a person with a concealed carry permit would need a BUG. Self defense shootings generally happen so fast there is simply no time to draw a BUG and if the opportunity does arise you probably have time to also make a quick exit.

I'm not saying it's impossible that a concealed carrier could need one but the chances are so remote that its just not a practical concern.

+1 JustinJ

 

[TAKtical]

Carry a primary that will accept a lanyard. Look up the blackhawk pistol lanyard. It will keep your pistol from hitting the ground.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by oneounceload: Simple question to ask yourself, - since you say you have lived there your whole life - how many times have you actually been assaulted/robbed/mugged? How many times have you ALMOST been robbed/assaulted/robbed? How many times has your gun prevented any of those? If the answer is that you have never experienced any of those, then you are probably good with a primary only

That doesn't follow.

The probability that you will be attacked, along with the consequences, drive the decision of whether or not to carry a firearm.

Whether you ever need a second firearm depends upon whether your primary defensive weapon fails if you are attacked. It's a matter of conditional probability that relates not to the likelihood of an attack, but to the likelihood of a malfunction.

And, of course, the fact that you have never been attacked does not serve as a predictor of whether or not you will be attacked on any given day (a very low likelihood, by the way) or at some time during the rest of your life. I't's a simple matter of independent probability.

The kind of neighborhood can make a difference, but violent criminal attackers are very mobile these days. Any of us may be vulnerable while we are walking to or from or car or getting in or out of it, and at ATMs.

 

[David E]

Carrying a second gun allows one to arm a trusted companion who is unarmed at the time. (wife at a rest stop, etc)

It also allows a tactical option of being available to the off hand.

Using a BUG doesn't always have to involve a malfunction.

 

[oneounceload]

What does the chance of being attacked have to do with the amount of firepower I will need if attacked? When people are attacked in my town, it's often a group of attackers.

how many times has this happened - once ? twice? every day? - even with a group - you shoot one, the rest scatter - if you really think you need 57 guns and reloads, have at it, but I suspect you don't.

That doesn't follow.

The probability that you will be attacked, along with the consequences, drive the decision of whether or not to carry a firearm.

Exactly - and if the probability is low, then the need for a SECOND gun and reload is unnecessary - are there certain parts that are undesirable? Sure, so don't go there. I have certain areas in my small city I don't go in because of that - but I also know MY neighborhood and what the risks are - and here they are minimal - even at the liquor store or C store late at night
The people that feel they need a primary, reload, BUG and reload IMO are really wound too tight - the stats back that up - gun fights are over in one or two shots, so a primary with 6+ should do just fine. If you are experiencing extended drawn out firefights, then you better have more than a handgun

 

[Skribs]

Oneounce, the "stats" also show most people mag dump and need to reload after a dozen misses.

 

[tarosean]

The people that feel they need a primary, reload, BUG and reload IMO are really wound too tight - the stats back that up - gun fights are over in one or two shots, so a primary with 6+ should do just fine.

This is true.

If you do some research into normal law abiding citizens getting into "gun fights/shootouts" you will be hard pressed to come up with a substantial number. Chances dwindle further if you're not employed in a high risk career i.e. graveyard convenience store, banks, jewelry stores and mall security

Here are a couple examples..

The Ayoob files; An urban gunfighter: The lessons of Lance Thomas
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?45333-Urban-Gunfighter-(-The-Lance-Thomas-story)


The Ayoob files; High Volume Shootout: The Harry Beckwith Incident
http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

Not a whole lot out there though.

 

[mljdeckard]

I don't mock people for carrying a BUG, but I decided I won't for a few reasons.

It is a big responsibility to carry a gun, spare magazine, flashlight, knife, and cell phone. (Which I do, year-round, a full-size 1911.) To add TO THAT, another gun, and probably another magazine really increases the number of items which I need to track. Driving, working, doing stuff with my kids, training, shooting, practicing, reloading, it's all a whole new plan.

I would rather use the one I have WELL, and fight my way back to a rifle. I would rather keep a rifle in my home and vehicle at all times than......another handgun probably inferior to the one that didn't get the job done in the first place. If I DID carry a BUG, I would probably try to make it a combination like a Glock subcompact, where I can use the same mags and ammo as the primary gun if I have to.

 

[mljdeckard]

And I agree that if I am in a situation that I can't solve with my 8+1 in a 1911, it's highly unlikely that another pistol or more shots will make it any better.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by onecounceload: you shoot one, the rest scatter

Sometimes. Sometimes not.

Exactly - and if the probability [that you will need a firearm] is low, then the need for a SECOND gun and reload is unnecessary...

Doesn't follow. If firing the first gun is necessary, the need for a second is likely a function of whether the first one fails or runs dry. Conditional probability.

gun fights are over in one or two shots,....

Some are.

...so a primary with 6+ should do just fine

Better than five.

Let's look into it. Assume a 30% hit rate, two hits necessary to stop, the second attacker keeps coming, and you can and do stop shooting after two hits.

Your chance of coming out of it with five is three out of a hundred; seven takes it up to thirteen. If the first one runs, you're at sixty seven percent with seven.

Those assumptions probably add up to best case. That's because you will likely fire four at the first one. Remember, he's almost dertainly coming at you fast, if your use of force is immediately necessary.

And do you really want to end up empty?

See the results here.

It's a very basic probability exercise. If you don't like any of the assumptions, run the numbers yourself.

 

[scaatylobo]

simple MECHANICAL tool

The above is a description of a gun.

And ANY tool is prone to failure or 'breakage' at ANY time.

MOST likely when in use.

If that "USE" is in a S/D situation = your no longer "armed" with the ONE gun you needed.

I can think of many tools that if they fail,and I need another = I can go buy one or fix the one I have etc.

A defensive handgun is NOT that tool.

Cannot "fight your way to a long gun" if your ONLY handgun is not functioning.

And yes I have had guns fail,and I thank the good Lord that it was at the range.

1911 = broken extractor,total FT extract

S&W model 10 = broken firing pin,total failure that required a new pin

Colt pony = broken extractor FT extract

Any of the above fails would have resulted in possible death IF that gun was out of the fight ,during a S/D confrontation

If this matters nought to you,please do continue on your way = nothing to see here.

 

[Kleanbore]

I have had semi-automatic pistols malfunction--at the range. Not very often, but it has happened.

Almost every time, it was necessary to take out the magazine and put it back in. I have not had a magazine fail--yet.

I do not practice rapid magazine changes. I would not be able to change one under "Tueller" conditions.

I carry neither an extra magazine nor a back-up gun on my person. I do not claim that to be prudent, and I may change.

I sometimes do change things after thinking about them. This summer, I changed from a five shot revolver to a semi-auto with more capacity after a discussion here and one on TFL and after seeing an analysis by JohnKSa, and sometime back, I started carrying at home after going through a very simple "what if" analysis after a discussion on TFL.

Some time before that, discussions here led me to the conclusion that going downstairs to investigate a suspicious noise was a poor strategy.

Back-up gun or extra magazine? Still thinking.

 

[David E]

And yes I have had guns fail,and I thank the good Lord that it was at the range.

1911 = broken extractor,total FT extract

S&W model 10 = broken firing pin,total failure that required a new pin

Colt pony = broken extractor FT extract

Some people would interpret this to mean you shouldn't shoot your guns at the range......

Like you, I'd rather run them so I know them and hope they break at the range.

Kleenbore, it's very prudent to carry at least one spare mag for your primary gun. Not that you'll need it to finish the fight, tho that is a possibility, but mainly to remedy most malfunctions quicker than removing and reinserting the original. Also, to bring your gun up to full capacity after the initial confrontation allegedly concludes.

I'd carry a spare mag before I'd carry a second gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

I have belt carriers except for my Ruger SR-9c. All it would take is putting one on.

 

[holdencm9]

Again, I sometimes carry an extra mag, sometimes not. Usually it's just if I am wearing a jacket or other garment that affords me an additional pocket. It's not hurting anything, but I am under no illusions of the chances I'll need it.

And yes I have had guns fail,and I thank the good Lord that it was at the range.

1911 = broken extractor,total FT extract

S&W model 10 = broken firing pin,total failure that required a new pin

Colt pony = broken extractor FT extract

Any of the above fails would have resulted in possible death IF that gun was out of the fight ,during a S/D confrontation

If this matters nought to you,please do continue on your way = nothing to see here.

And how many rounds through each of those before they broke? Maybe 3,000? 5,000? Maybe I am lucky because I have never had a gun break and become inoperable, several thousands through some of them, and tens of thousands of rounds total.

So if you can expect a severe failure every 5k rounds, you have less than a 1 in 1000 chance of it happening during a typical confrontation (assuming 5 shots fired in the engagement...most are less). And many would argue that most modern handguns are much more durable. And the chances of being in a violent encounter are probably 1 in 100, so the chances you'll need a spare gun, 1 in 100,000.

A spare gun may not hurt anything (except being more weight). But for a .00001 chance of needing it? I won't lose sleep if I only have one gun on me.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by holdencm9: And the chances of being in a violent encounter are probably 1 in 100,...

How do you figure that? Sounds very high to me, unless your are referring to exposure over a considerable period of time.

... so the chances you'll need a spare gun, 1 in 100,000.

But the question at hand is, what is the likelihood that you would need a back-up gun (or spare magazine) if you are engaged in a defensive encounter.

 

[David E]

But the question at hand is, what is the likelihood that you would need a back-up gun (or spare magazine) if you are engaged in a defensive encounter.

I thought the question was, which one is better?

The BUG can be used for things before a gunfight ever takes place, like arming someone else, etc, as I previously mentioned.

But the Primary gun should be primary. To me, that means properly outfitting that gun before worrying about peripheral gear.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by David E: I thought the question was, which one is better?

I was referring to another poster's statistical analysis.

The BUG can be used for things before a gunfight ever takes place, like arming someone else, etc, as I previously mentioned.

True.

 

[scaatylobo]

I forgot one

A Ruger security six that had the cylinder plunger unscrew and stop the gun from being opened to reload.

The 1911 that failed had approx 3000 rounds through it.

The model 10 had THOUSANDS of rounds through it.

The Colt pony had less than 1000 rounds through it.

I am a FIRM believer in "Murphys law" and have seen it proven hundreds of times :banghead:.

From gun fights to knife fights and even car accidents [ falls off ladders too ] so I go with the possibility that ANYTHING can fail at ANYTIME.

That being the case,it will happen at the worst possible time.