My Brother in Law's New Sharps Rifle

[Guns&Religion]

My Bro in Law just sent me a pic of a very nice looking 45/70 Sharps he just ordered, which I am now drooling over. He says we will take it out to shoot in on our next trip to see the family back east. You can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to take advantage of that.

I just want to get some tips from the treasure trove of information on this website, since I've never shot a 45/70 before, and I know nothing about a Sharp's rifle, (beyond what's in the movie "Quigley Down Under")

While I don't expect to be shooting buckets at 900 yards or anything close to that (I like that movie) I was wondering how far away can you shoot that round and print on the paper. Also, can anyone recommend a good load for distance shooting. (I'm hoping we can at least go beyond 100 yards)

Thanks

 

[Voodoochile]

Those are definitely nice rifles, I've personally only shot a replica of a 1863 Sharps in .54 caliber & was able to be pretty consistent out to 300 yards but then my buddy really worked the load & sized the projectile so it was more accurate than I was back then.

As far as the 1874 types in .45-70, I'd ask some of the guys in the Black Powder section because some use a similar rifle in their BPCR competitions & I know that they reach further out than 300 yards with them.

 

[Guns&Religion]

Thanks I will ask those guys too

 

[henschman]

As far as actually printing on paper, they did some tests on that back in the late 1800s, and found that with accurate mapping of the trajectory, they could get the rounds to come down on an area target out to 2,500-3,000 yards or something ridiculous like that! I believe the .45-70 was one of the cartridges they did the tests on. Of course the rounds were coming in nearly vertically at that range. Those tests were why all the Victorian-era military rifles had those volley sights that allowed sighting out to crazy distances, which were rarely if ever used in combat.

 

[Double Vision]

Nice.

I've got an 1879 Argentinian Remington Rolling Block in .43 Spanish that I'm aching to try out but I'm not sure how safe it is to fire.

 

[Jim Watson]

I only shoot BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) Metallic Silhouette to 500 metres and Midrange to 600 yards, but have a good time at it. A 90 on the NRA 600 yard target is good shooting for me, although I can clean the 200 yard target from prone on sticks.
I know Creedmoor shooters who are successful to 800, 900, and 1000 yards.

Black is best. The old rounds have high trajectories and a little variation in velocity shows up as vertical stringing on the target. A good black powder load will have velocity spread in the single digits, which is not seen with smokeless.

A good match of barrel, bullet, and load will be about a 1.5 moa rig. Some people can squeeze 1 moa out of them but that is exceptional.

I do not know any place to buy target quality ammunition. The stuff sold at high prices by the specialty companies is suitable for hunting at short to medium-short range and just to say you fired the gun.

You have to handload and handload darned well to get the best out of the rifles.

You should carefully cast your own bullets for top accuracy, although I am not now set up for it and am buying the best I can find.

 

[Guns&Religion]

Black Powder can be loaded more accurately than Smokeless? Really? I'm not doubting you but I have to say I have never heard that before in my life. (Then again, I don't shoot BP much)

Well, on reflection I suppose the round was designed as a BP round, so I guess it shouldn't surprise me. Smokeless powder in the 45/70 case probably has a lot of empty space to shift around in.

Unfortunately, neither me nor my brother in law reload, are there any manufactured rounds you would lean towards?

 

[RPRNY]

As far as actually printing on paper, they did some tests on that back in the late 1800s, and found that with accurate mapping of the trajectory, they could get the rounds to come down on an area target out to 2,500-3,000 yards or something ridiculous like that!

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.

Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!

- Sandy Hook Trials 1879

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

45-70. Iron sights. Black Powder. Early industrial revolution metallurgy. Impressive.

 

[stubbicatt]

A nose poured bullet, proper fiber wads and grease wads, good Swiss Black powder, and patience and these things will shoot extremely well.

 

[armedwalleye]

Quigley's rifle was actially an 1874 Sharps in .45-110

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quigley_Down_Under

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

With smokless powders and today's metalurgy of the Shiloh rofles, it is easy to duplicate the ballistics of the .45/110 in a smaller cartridge like the .45-70. I have used IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 for medium loads safe in the newer guns, yet capable of shooting way flatter than the slower blackpowder loads for either cartridge. I do not have access to really long ranges here in Ohio, but know that the bullets CAN get way out there, from just a few sessions while on vacation out west.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have no knowledge of storebought ammunition.
I have never shot a factory load in either of my BPCRs.

I have not shot smokeless in my Winchester in about 20 years and then not at any great range.
I have never shot smokeless in my Browning.

 

[BCRider]

G&R, by the time he gets to bring the rifle to you and you get to shoot it he will likely have been out to the range a few times and know the settings to use for hitting the targets at a few set typical distances. You just need to set the rear sight to that and then it's up to you and your booger picker....

And just because black powder is older it doesn't mean it's not able to deliver the sort of accuracy that is being discussed in this thread. I took my new to me single shot Remington Rolling block out to my local 300 yard range to sight it in for that distance and by luck benched up next to a guy shooting paper patched black powder rounds in some cartridge size that I simply do not remember. Because black powder is somewhat temperature sensitive he brings along the scale and loads the cartridges right at the set up bench behind the firing line for that day. He was struggling with the unseasonably cool day so his groups at 200 were "only" about 3 inches. And this with a peep sighted single shot rolling block. After a few tries he nailed it by adding a couple of grains to get just the right amount of compression on the black powder charge and as we all walked out to check the targets I saw that he had shot a 4 shot group at 200 yards which was about 1.5 inches across.

So don't discount those old guys with no scope and a beard that hangs half way down their chest. I know I sure won't. I was tripping over my lower jaw all the way to the 300 yard butt to get to my own target where I found an 8'ish inch 5 shot group centered nicely on the big red spray paint blotch I'd put on the oversize paper. T'hell with the other guy's group. I danced all the way back as it was my first time with that rifle, the first time with peep sights and the first batch of 50 "let's try it and see" loads out of my .38-55 rolling block.

And hey, to get the most out of this new toy of his he really needs to get into reloading for it. It'll give him access to a whole universe more variety in loads and allow him to play with powder types and amounts and with different bullets to find what really matches up to the bore size and twist rate in this new gun. These things may have a rainbow like trajectory compared to the new "zoomy" guns. But they can rainbow with consistency that a good shooter can use to match what many scoped high tech super velocity guys manage with the new toys.