University of Idaho's "environmental health and safety" extended the Staff/Student ban to no firearms without University approval by anyone and they must be checked in at the Campus Police Substation. they also decided legal CCW would no longer be recognized.
My college's response to VA tech
- Thread starter Jim Diver
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madmike
Member
Is that legal under state law?
SMMAssociates
Member
We have a guy here in OH who discovered that while OH's CHL law insists that the gun be locked in your car, his school didn't even permit that.
The Administrators agreed to follow the law.
Lotta good it'll do if the stuff hits the fan....
Terrorist and criminal friendly....
Regards
The Administrators agreed to follow the law.
Lotta good it'll do if the stuff hits the fan....
Terrorist and criminal friendly....
Regards
bogie
Member
Guys, there's three things that can happen if you write or call or set up a meeting with the honcho in charge:
He'll pay attention to you, and change the policy.
He'll pay attention to you, and lean a little closer to changing the policy, but he won't. Yet.
He'll do nothing.
CONVERSELY, if you do nothing, guess what?
He'll do nothing.
He'll pay attention to you, and change the policy.
He'll pay attention to you, and lean a little closer to changing the policy, but he won't. Yet.
He'll do nothing.
CONVERSELY, if you do nothing, guess what?
He'll do nothing.
kungfuhippie
Member
Bogie,
that may work in a free state but this is California...
If I go talk to the head honcho his secretary will ask me why.
I'll say RKBA/ permission to carry on campus (in non gun-nut terms) she'll tell me to go pound sand President Ortiz is too busy to talk about that. (I know because I tried it this afternoon) She'll then tell me she doesn't schedule appointments for "non-scholastic" topics. She'll tell me to go to one of the many "student forums" a meeting where a mass of students can ask President Ortiz anything and he'll answer.
So, he didn't pay attention, he didn't change the policy, he didn't lean a little bit to the right, He did nothing.
-Let me add that his actions in such things are dictated by lawyers. In this state (where a bunch of Jr. Feinsteins run things) him prohibiting guns on campus is a great way for the school to avoid a lawsuit if someone "authorized to carry" has a ND or goes crazy.
-And finally the prohibition is Statewide, the aception is the loophole. To get it changed it must be done on a state level. Harassing him to change a state policy is like harassing the McDonalds worker because the price of a BigMac was raised. Barking up the wrong tree. I simply wanted to ask what would be required to obtain permission to carry concealed on campus.
So I'm still open for ideas...I'm kicking around the idea of starting a gun club. We'll need an advisor.
that may work in a free state but this is California...
If I go talk to the head honcho his secretary will ask me why.
I'll say RKBA/ permission to carry on campus (in non gun-nut terms) she'll tell me to go pound sand President Ortiz is too busy to talk about that. (I know because I tried it this afternoon) She'll then tell me she doesn't schedule appointments for "non-scholastic" topics. She'll tell me to go to one of the many "student forums" a meeting where a mass of students can ask President Ortiz anything and he'll answer.
So, he didn't pay attention, he didn't change the policy, he didn't lean a little bit to the right, He did nothing.
-Let me add that his actions in such things are dictated by lawyers. In this state (where a bunch of Jr. Feinsteins run things) him prohibiting guns on campus is a great way for the school to avoid a lawsuit if someone "authorized to carry" has a ND or goes crazy.
-And finally the prohibition is Statewide, the aception is the loophole. To get it changed it must be done on a state level. Harassing him to change a state policy is like harassing the McDonalds worker because the price of a BigMac was raised. Barking up the wrong tree. I simply wanted to ask what would be required to obtain permission to carry concealed on campus.
So I'm still open for ideas...I'm kicking around the idea of starting a gun club. We'll need an advisor.
At the community college I work their response to VT?
If you see any one acting suspicious call the administrator, who will call the president of the college who is 50 miles away on another campus, who will then call the president of all the state community colleges who is 125 miles away and then they will decide what to do, if anything. I kid you not...
They are so scared of lawsuits, even though they have never been sued that they won't hire a security guard because according to them it makes the school more liable should they get sued. In my years here we have had attempts to burn a building down, vandalized vehicles, and a 24 yr. old student who attempted to murder a parking attendant by running him over. All caught and absolutely NOTHING done to them.
Our dept. has actually tried to come up with actions to take on our on if a nutcase shows up, such as pre-planned escape routes depending upon the direction of the attack. We teach it to our staff and It's not much but considering we are in a "gun free zone of safety" in the administrators minds of alternate reality, it's about all we can do.
If you see any one acting suspicious call the administrator, who will call the president of the college who is 50 miles away on another campus, who will then call the president of all the state community colleges who is 125 miles away and then they will decide what to do, if anything. I kid you not...
They are so scared of lawsuits, even though they have never been sued that they won't hire a security guard because according to them it makes the school more liable should they get sued. In my years here we have had attempts to burn a building down, vandalized vehicles, and a 24 yr. old student who attempted to murder a parking attendant by running him over. All caught and absolutely NOTHING done to them.
Our dept. has actually tried to come up with actions to take on our on if a nutcase shows up, such as pre-planned escape routes depending upon the direction of the attack. We teach it to our staff and It's not much but considering we are in a "gun free zone of safety" in the administrators minds of alternate reality, it's about all we can do.
madmike
Member
Can SAF or some other group provide a legal letter opining that deliberate negligence on their part is documented precedent for lawsuits if someone they've disarmed gets shot?
Because there is such precedent, and at least one state AG backs it up as legit.
Perhaps the thought of 30 lawsuits for, say, $10 million each will make them actually think about the issue.
I don't think they'll allow CCW necessarily, but they might actually decide to do something.
For that matter, are there going to be lawsuits for the prez of VT, who is by any rational analysis an accessory before the fact of mass murder?
bogie
Member
This is the typical Gun Nut Frontal Assault with Bayonets Fixed. It's really impressive to watch, but accomplishes absolutely nothing.
Looks too late now, but you SHOULD have told her that your parents (assumption made by most colleges - omg, those are the folks paying the bills, and we're about to lose ANOTHER student...) were concerned about campus safety. For all you know SHE is the hoplophobe. Do not even mention guns/CCW until you get to the top.
Right. Remember that the bureaucratic goal, 99% of the time, is inaction. Very few people get called on the carpet because they DID NOT do something different. The general feeling is that if one sticks to process, one is safe until retirement. It's only when something New and Different rears its ugly head that they go into panic mode, squeeze tighter than Ned Beatty's... well... and they start passing the buck.
Exactly - but what you are doing now isn't making furniture. It's planting the seeds of the tree that's going to produce the seeds of the tree that you're gonna use to make the bench that the furniture will be made on... If you approach the bureaucracy in the right way, it'll start thinking. And if it thinks enough, then it starts thinking that it had the Good Idea itself...
Go to the campus meetings. Don't talk about guns. Don't even MENTION guns. Let someone else do that (preferably a female or disabled person - and it probably wouldn't hurt to have already coached them, and have them sitting on the other side of the room from you - this is war, but it's a guerilla war - no fixed bayonets). Talk about safety and security, and keep asking "Is there anything that we can do to increase safety, and every time they talk about "Call the switchboard" ask "What do we do until the cops get here?"
Looks too late now, but you SHOULD have told her that your parents (assumption made by most colleges - omg, those are the folks paying the bills, and we're about to lose ANOTHER student...) were concerned about campus safety. For all you know SHE is the hoplophobe. Do not even mention guns/CCW until you get to the top.
Right. Remember that the bureaucratic goal, 99% of the time, is inaction. Very few people get called on the carpet because they DID NOT do something different. The general feeling is that if one sticks to process, one is safe until retirement. It's only when something New and Different rears its ugly head that they go into panic mode, squeeze tighter than Ned Beatty's... well... and they start passing the buck.
Exactly - but what you are doing now isn't making furniture. It's planting the seeds of the tree that's going to produce the seeds of the tree that you're gonna use to make the bench that the furniture will be made on... If you approach the bureaucracy in the right way, it'll start thinking. And if it thinks enough, then it starts thinking that it had the Good Idea itself...
Go to the campus meetings. Don't talk about guns. Don't even MENTION guns. Let someone else do that (preferably a female or disabled person - and it probably wouldn't hurt to have already coached them, and have them sitting on the other side of the room from you - this is war, but it's a guerilla war - no fixed bayonets). Talk about safety and security, and keep asking "Is there anything that we can do to increase safety, and every time they talk about "Call the switchboard" ask "What do we do until the cops get here?"
AG's office wouldn't answer my question RE: is it legal, they said it was a conflict of interest. said to talk to Campus Police (Campus Police are also City Police). called them, they said talk to the University, after 12 calls or so to the University, head of EHS called and said they can make any rule they want and all non approved by University firearms must be checked in at the Campus Police Sub Station.
took it to state rep for this area, he sent off a offical request to AG's office a week and a half ago. we're still waiting to hear back.
the actual statue for CCW says nothing about post secondary, k-12 only.
took it to state rep for this area, he sent off a offical request to AG's office a week and a half ago. we're still waiting to hear back.
the actual statue for CCW says nothing about post secondary, k-12 only.
kungfuhippie
Member
Somebody is familiar how things are run in the DPRK!!!!
LA county doesn't issue CCW permits unless you're a celebrity-so the school thinks it's a non-issue. San Bernardino County (nest door) is all but shall issue.
Can they say something like "... for the purpose of saving the population of the Earth, every freshman girl should be impregnated by one of the deans" ?
Surely they can write ANY rule they want. But is it within the existing law?
That was the whole fuss in University of Utah lawsuit. The school
had policy that violated the laws.
Search you state laws, look for things saying NOONE may make
aditional laws about firearms, preemption etc.
If it says school can make its own laws - sucks for you.
madmike
Member
Actually, yes.
It would be challenged and tossed out at once, but the reason lesser outrages continue on the books is because they can, in fact, exercise ANY authority they want.
The danger of delegating legislative power to petty bureaucrats.
bogie
Member
Fine. If they're getting overly curious, ask 'em if they want to go to the range with you.
Or every time you have to walk someone alone, call for a security escort.
Whatever.
Welcome to the world of protest.
SMMAssociates
Member
Axctal:
They may....
Actually it's the other way around. OH's CHL law has a line that essentially says "obey all other regulations". So, the folks at ODNR ("Hunting Licenses" & such) decided that there would be no Concealed Carry while hunting. They can't legislate, but they can regulate. (ODNR changed their mind just recently. The concern apparently was "poaching". "Safety" seems to have not entered their minds.)
Another good example: In many states (including OH) a property owner can post "No Firearms". A line (well, a bunch of lines) in the Ohio law says that they can do it, and if they do it's "law".... (It's a little short on teeth but not a good thing to test in OH.)
If you tell an administrator that they can do something, and somebody decides then that they should, it's going to happen if it's some way to decrease our freedom....
Regards,
They may....
Actually it's the other way around. OH's CHL law has a line that essentially says "obey all other regulations". So, the folks at ODNR ("Hunting Licenses" & such) decided that there would be no Concealed Carry while hunting. They can't legislate, but they can regulate. (ODNR changed their mind just recently. The concern apparently was "poaching". "Safety" seems to have not entered their minds.)
Another good example: In many states (including OH) a property owner can post "No Firearms". A line (well, a bunch of lines) in the Ohio law says that they can do it, and if they do it's "law".... (It's a little short on teeth but not a good thing to test in OH.)
If you tell an administrator that they can do something, and somebody decides then that they should, it's going to happen if it's some way to decrease our freedom....
Regards,
Intune
Member
Look folks, Bogie is not saying to walk into the dean’s office with your favorite hogleg strapped to your hip demanding that concealed carry is the way to roll on this/any campus. You need numbers. Sheer numbers of students who see the light. The contrasting memo/poster of “this is what they want us to do and die like sheep” and “this is what we should do and live,” is a great start. Post them around with a set meeting time at the student center. 25-50 ppl the first meeting. Expand. DO NOT bring up cc now, you don’t have the #’s. This is just a rallying cry. People will be talking about it from the urgency you conveyed. The next meeting will/should have more people. Fear is a great motivator. You are presenting options to dying. You might have to find a larger venue. Once you have the #’s on your side start throwing out things like, “wouldn’t you feel more comfortable with an armed security guard in every dorm & classroom?” “Shouldn’t this university provide for our safety with the high tuition that we’re paying?” You’ll get a resounding “YES!” “The gun and the badge put the odds more in our favor, don’t they? Well, they’re not going to protect us. They don’t think we’re worth the cost. But we have the power to protect ourselves and here’s is the only way we can protect ourselves from being slaughtered by a madman. A gun and a badge. Remove the badge, what do you have left? An honest, honorable man/woman with a gun between you and death”
NOW you walk the delicate, diplomatic line of EDUCATING them to the value and sensibility of grad students and legal-aged concealed carry permit holders amongst the student/staff populace. Give them the concealed carry FACTS. They’ve probably never even heard them before. You will undoubtedly lose a few but the majority will be behind you. Those who come to the next rally will be firmly behind you. Guess what, now you’re ready to request an audience with the president/dean to discuss campus security. Any hesitation on their part and you march on his/her office. Oops, looks like someone tipped off the three local news stations and two national ones… Enjoy, you are potentially saving lives and giving a new generation some spine.
Bogie and I have plenty of grey in our hair but tear gas and batons just strengthen resolve and give the emergency room some extra biz. Look at it as a community donation…
NOW you walk the delicate, diplomatic line of EDUCATING them to the value and sensibility of grad students and legal-aged concealed carry permit holders amongst the student/staff populace. Give them the concealed carry FACTS. They’ve probably never even heard them before. You will undoubtedly lose a few but the majority will be behind you. Those who come to the next rally will be firmly behind you. Guess what, now you’re ready to request an audience with the president/dean to discuss campus security. Any hesitation on their part and you march on his/her office. Oops, looks like someone tipped off the three local news stations and two national ones… Enjoy, you are potentially saving lives and giving a new generation some spine.
Bogie and I have plenty of grey in our hair but tear gas and batons just strengthen resolve and give the emergency room some extra biz. Look at it as a community donation…
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madmike
Member
I'd start with the attack on the non-plan.
"We can't barricade ourselves in the classroom if the doors open out! We can't in a classroom with a glass door! We can't if an attacker can easily shoot the lock off!* We need a better plan! How dare you talk down to us and treat us like children! We won't be patronized. We want a real security plan, and we demand it now! Here's 5000 names on a petition! Our parents are concerned, too!"
Get parents writing letters demanding action.
When they come out and say, "Security guards will cost $xxxxx!" you can then say, "But the crime rate among CCW holders is less than that among armed guards (It may be in your state, seriously). Why not let responsible, trained students and faculty carry? OR DO YOU LIKE DEAD STUDENTS?" (This is key: Any debate has to be either or. Either they want better security, OR they like dead students. Accept no waffling.)
*Yes, you and I know he can't "easily shoot a lock off," but these are simple people. The common clay of the new west. You know: Morons.
The fact is, they ARE stupid (on this subject), they DO have their heads in the sand, they ARE being patronizing, and they are borderline insane--let's do the same thing that didn't work last time and see if it works this time!
You win by compromising. To get a compromise, you must get them on the defensive and demand 8-10 times what you will settle for.
Opening demand: Armed guards on every dorm floor 24/7, in every classroom in use and in every building entrance. And no increase in tuition. 5000 signatures on a petition (Come on, if hippies will sign a petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide, they'll sign this. And remember: "It's for the children!") and possibly a protest for the cameras.
Settle for CCW. It's a compromise.
"We can't barricade ourselves in the classroom if the doors open out! We can't in a classroom with a glass door! We can't if an attacker can easily shoot the lock off!* We need a better plan! How dare you talk down to us and treat us like children! We won't be patronized. We want a real security plan, and we demand it now! Here's 5000 names on a petition! Our parents are concerned, too!"
Get parents writing letters demanding action.
When they come out and say, "Security guards will cost $xxxxx!" you can then say, "But the crime rate among CCW holders is less than that among armed guards (It may be in your state, seriously). Why not let responsible, trained students and faculty carry? OR DO YOU LIKE DEAD STUDENTS?" (This is key: Any debate has to be either or. Either they want better security, OR they like dead students. Accept no waffling.)
*Yes, you and I know he can't "easily shoot a lock off," but these are simple people. The common clay of the new west. You know: Morons.
The fact is, they ARE stupid (on this subject), they DO have their heads in the sand, they ARE being patronizing, and they are borderline insane--let's do the same thing that didn't work last time and see if it works this time!
You win by compromising. To get a compromise, you must get them on the defensive and demand 8-10 times what you will settle for.
Opening demand: Armed guards on every dorm floor 24/7, in every classroom in use and in every building entrance. And no increase in tuition. 5000 signatures on a petition (Come on, if hippies will sign a petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide, they'll sign this. And remember: "It's for the children!") and possibly a protest for the cameras.
Settle for CCW. It's a compromise.
bogie
Member
1) they're not morons.
2) and they're probably not "anti"
They're just IGNORANT and UNEDUCATED. Be kind, and gentle, and let them teach themselves (the way most likely to "catch).
Next thing, someone's gonna say that it isn't the high road to walk a protest march past the prez's secretary and into his office...
LEARN from folks like Abbie Hoffman, guys... And some of us semi-old, semi-hippie types.
You're not gonna get a lot of folks right now - start talking it among the students. Next semester (not the summer one, either - that's just for students who discovered that studying by the pool beats the heck outta spending the summer at McDonalds...), organize the march. Be _real_ interesting to also do a "die-in" close to the same time frame.
Civil disobedience. Read your books, campers... Not just the ones in your major either.
2) and they're probably not "anti"
They're just IGNORANT and UNEDUCATED. Be kind, and gentle, and let them teach themselves (the way most likely to "catch).
Next thing, someone's gonna say that it isn't the high road to walk a protest march past the prez's secretary and into his office...
LEARN from folks like Abbie Hoffman, guys... And some of us semi-old, semi-hippie types.
You're not gonna get a lot of folks right now - start talking it among the students. Next semester (not the summer one, either - that's just for students who discovered that studying by the pool beats the heck outta spending the summer at McDonalds...), organize the march. Be _real_ interesting to also do a "die-in" close to the same time frame.
Civil disobedience. Read your books, campers... Not just the ones in your major either.
madmike
Member
The "morons" quote is from Blazing saddles;-)
robmkivseries70
Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 241
Uhh! Did any body catch this!
"Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO! "
Good Luck,
Rob
"Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO! "
Good Luck,
Rob
answerguy
Member
That would be Bluto from the movie Animal House
it now appears that there is statute law here in Idaho that does NOT allow any govt entity to override law without statute approval to do so (meaning if the legislature doesn't pass a law saying the U of I can limit CCW then the U of I can not limit it.) it seems this also applies to State Parks and Rec amongs any other state agency that has firearm restrictions on the books.
one suggestion was a suit in county court requesting the Universiity to put up a $500 million dollar bond (in cash) until such time as the issue of liability by the University for disarming legal CCW person was resolved.
another was an request for a court order that everyone, every single person, be search upon entering campus every day in order to ensure that the regulation was being followed (also kinda makes a mockery of the safety of weapons free zones don't it?)
and, every single person who has a firearm and has to go on campus check their firearm at the campus police substation as required by regulation (which requires pulling an City Police officer off the beat to check it in and out) as many times a day as they can.
for some of us, it's easier. I am neither staff nor student at the University. they can't fire me. they can't suspend me. I gave up getting a job there long ago, they don't care about experience, just certificates. but for the folks who are stuck. stand your ground and raise up your voice and risk having 4 or 5 years of education blown out of the water or loss of a needed job, or stand quiet and put the word out when you can. they also serve who only stand and wait until the time is right.
one suggestion was a suit in county court requesting the Universiity to put up a $500 million dollar bond (in cash) until such time as the issue of liability by the University for disarming legal CCW person was resolved.
another was an request for a court order that everyone, every single person, be search upon entering campus every day in order to ensure that the regulation was being followed (also kinda makes a mockery of the safety of weapons free zones don't it?)
and, every single person who has a firearm and has to go on campus check their firearm at the campus police substation as required by regulation (which requires pulling an City Police officer off the beat to check it in and out) as many times a day as they can.
for some of us, it's easier. I am neither staff nor student at the University. they can't fire me. they can't suspend me. I gave up getting a job there long ago, they don't care about experience, just certificates. but for the folks who are stuck. stand your ground and raise up your voice and risk having 4 or 5 years of education blown out of the water or loss of a needed job, or stand quiet and put the word out when you can. they also serve who only stand and wait until the time is right.
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