my damn bullets keep falling out of their cases!!!!

[silverlance]

**SOLVED WITH PICS!!!: my damn bullets keep falling out of their cases!!!!

Lee Loader, Privi once fired military cases, bullet is speer .311 150gr.

out of a batch of 20 i will get two or three that simply fall apart on me! the bullet drops inside the case and then I cuss for about five minutes. I suspect that either a) the lee loader neck sizes to .312, or b) the privi brass cases are sized for .312.

what do you guys think?

i also use a lee loader for my 308 and i dont get this problem at all.

 

[Mikee Loxxer]

What cartridge are you loading? 7.62 X39 or 7.62X54R?

 

[scrat]

ya i think this information would help. sounds like the wrong size bullets
#1.Mic out the case neck after you size them.
#2. Call lee precision up talk to the tech department.

 

[silverlance]

this is 7.62x54R, sorry.
I'll use the venier caliper on the inside of the neck, try to find the widest diameter.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Hmm... You mean the bullets keep falling into the case when you seat them? Like they won't hold a depth before the crimp is applied?

If this is the case, I have experienced the same problem with my 39 and 54R loading of .310 bullets in the standard dies. The .308 is too small for a 310-311 bullets, but the 311 sizer is too large for the 310 and once the case hit the canneleur, it drops, screwing the seating depth. I've fixed this problem by sizing with the 308 sizing pin, then putting the 311 in and only inserting it into the die enough to flare the first bit of the neck enough to get the bullet in. Since the lower part of the neck is still 308, it provides the necessary resistance to keep the bullet from sinking once it gets to the groove.

I'm not sure how this may help with the Lee Loader, but maybe you can call Lee and see what it'd cost for the other expander, if they can be changed.

 

[1lostinspace]

Hmmm that's weird maybe you need to resize your brass I am guessing you are using unfired brass, I am guessing they were intended for a roll crimp.

 

[silverlance]

the original cartridges didn't seem to be crimped.
what happens is that I load up 20 rounds. the problem occurs if i drop them. for instance, yesterday i dropped a full box of 20 x54R rounds that I had loaded. three of them promptly popped themselves into their cases and spilled powder everywhere.

I can try using a 312 bullet, but id really like to stick to 311 for cost reasons. I suppose i should call lee and ask what their dies resize to.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Hmmm that's weird maybe you need to resize your brass I am guessing you are using unfired brass, I am guessing they were intended for a roll crimp.

Most rifle rounds require a roll crimp to avoid set-back and primarily to build pressure.

After reading the Lee Loader information I have come up a couple of ideas here for the OP.

If this is the first load that YOU are making on once-fired case, the problem is likely a bullet that is not the full diameter (this is especially likely in that the Loader neck sizes to the proper outside diameter.) If the brass is thin or the bullet is slightly out of spec, it will be loose on the inside diameter.

Seeing in your post that this is mil-spec brass, I wouldn't be surprised if the brass was out of spec to begin with. Military rifles are notorious for loose tolerances.

Also, the brass might have hardened, though with only one firing, this would likely be a manufacturer annealing method error, something Privi is not known for. Hard brass would not stretch correctly, and is more prone to cracks.


Fixes:
1:Check your bullets for variance off of the .311 size. A .310 isn't bad, but a .309 isn't going to do well at all in seating.
2: THe Lee Loaders are supposed to crimp by flipping the unit over, though I'm not entirely sure which part or side it is.
3: a Full-length resize of mil-spec brass should be a priority when you get it and before you load it the first time. This would require a bench mount (or even the Lee Hand press), but it'd be money well spent. Be aware the Lee hand press is a tough one to full-length size on. After the full resize and the first firing in your gun, neck-sizing with the loader should be all you need.

I hope some of this helps the OP. I'd check your bullets first. even a 310 can cause slippage in a 311 neck.

 

[FieroCDSP]

If they can pop into the case competely just from dropping the box, your neck is waaay too loose. Somethin' aint right there. I'm not sure what kind of accuracy you're getting off of those, but a roll crimp might help, assuming the bullets you're using have the crimp groove, and would certainly prevent drop-ins. Call Lee and see what they recommend.

 

[brasskeeper]

I think the expander in your sizing die is to large, or the size of the bullet is incorrect.

 

[silverlance]

thanks for all the help.
tomorrow I'm calling Lee to see what their Loaders resize to - .308, .310, .311, or .312 (all were at one time standard bore diameters for the 7.62x54R round... remember that it is well over a 100 years old)

I'm also going to set up my Lee press to full length resize. I'll try to get the parts for my bench tomorrow as well (I have to build the thing). A visit to home depot and about $150 should do the trick. I really would prefer to use the Loader as it is small and actually quite fun to use, but I recognize that the press really is the eventual way to go.

Bullets are definitely .311 - however, it is entirely possible that the three that fell apart were out of spec. I'll also caliper the inside of the brass cases after Loader neck sizing.

 

[Fatelvis]

I would pull a bullet from one of the OK loads, and compare the diameter to a few of the bullets that "fell out" of the cases. You may have had some undersized bullets mixed into the box.

 

[silverlance]

well i called Lee today. the Outside Dimension is .335 . now I'm going to measure the case wall width, multiply by two, and subtract from .335 to give me ID.

the nice tech guy also suggested that I REALLY whack the case in there with my nylon hammer since the die is tapered.

 

[rcmodel]

The ID measurement of a sized case should be .001" - .002" under bullet dia. to give proper neck tension.

Perhaps the Lee guy was on to something.
If you haven't really been Whacking them in there, you haven't been resizing them all the same!


rcmodel

 

[silverlance]

i thought i had been. heck, i bash them in real good - it's part of the reason why i prefer using the loaders. I like bashing stuff =)
but maybe i got limp wristed a time or two. or maybe the bullets aren't right. right now im taking care of my GF who has a fever. as soon as she stops moaning and falls asleep Ill get back to my little reloading table. =)

 

[scrat]

Well yes i can see where that would be a problem i guess i would be doing the same thing.

BUTTTTT

we all want to know whats going on you have us all interested now.

im not too sure banging them in further is the answer.

i have had problems in 30-30 cases before too. not a lot. maybe 2-3 for every two hundred. you can almost tell. Now i have used a lee loader as well as my press. You really can tell though. When you get that case that just goes in easy when your resizing it put it aside. Weather your using a loader or a press. I have found that these cases are just too thin walled now or stretched out. I usually mark them with a sharpie. then load them for cast bullet. AS the cast bullet is larger in diameter. This will still hold a tight fit. Now the next time i go shooting when im done all cases with a sharpie go in the recycle bin. Im ok with it as i know i have got my moneys worth on reloading those cases. Who knows they could have been reloaded about 5-10 times already. Along with that i always buy ammo from walmart when they are on sale. Then take them and shoot at least one new box a session. So i will keep my brass stock going up as i replace the worn out ones.


So my only question is how many times have they been sized. Then if you shoot lead cast. when you size cases and find some loose ones keep them for that. but thats the last time you should shoot them. Now i know they do make make lead cast for that size.

 

[GunTech]

What is the diameter of you sizer ball? You can always take off a few thousandths by chucking it up in a drill and using fine grip sand paper to reduce the size.

Maybe it's time to think of different dies? I use Redding collet dies, and it's easy to change the bushing to get the exact neck tension required.

 

[scrat]

he is using a lee classic loader. there is no sizing ball

 

[silverlance]

here's the report!

first of all, my lyman tapper broke (2nd time) when i tried this. the stupid nylon head isnt strong enough. i quickly called up midway and asked them to add

119456 1 $18.99 Cook Deadblow Hammer 21oz Polyur...
148663 1 $21.99 Grobet 8 oz Rawhide Mallet

to my existing $320 order this morning (god this "money saving" do it yourself hobby is costing so much more than when i used to just buy ammo, shoot, and go home, and clean my gun with the m16 buttstock kit)

the nice midway guy asked me why i was sounding so terse and i told him that my lyman had broken for the second time. he said, "maybe we can do something about that". when i asked him if this meant that i could return it, he said, "dont worry about the return, how about we just credit the cost of the lyman tapper to this order?" that sounded great to me and it was done. yay for midway! he even placed it as a separate order from my morning's order so that my blemished bullet order wouldn't get lost. my total shipped for both of these hammers (hop ethey work out better) was $37.

anyway, i had fortunately already hammered the case all the way into the die. as you can see from the pic it cant possibly be a case of not far enough. i then cleaned teh primer, and calipered it.

this was a lot harder than you think because im not that good at using a caliper. the more push i put on a caliper the more the needle moves. well, on first measurement (after calibration of course) the ID of the case mouth was .311 . the case thickness at the neck was .011 , .010, .012, and .009. i couldnt get it to be stable. im not sure if this was me or the case. brass is very soft and if you put pressure on the caliper im sure you can squeeze the brass and dent it.

at this point i am moving to present tense because im typing as im doing it.
anyway, i then put it back in the die and hammer it again. when i ID the inside of the case mouth it is now .306 !! i am doing it again. .308!! try again... .304. okay, im doing it wrong (and i dont think the caliper is good for round diameters anyway since it is staggered. im using the small end of the caliper for inside measurement). yes, i am recalibrating each time (rezeroing actually).

case thickness.. .right wall.. first measuremtn... .012 second measurement... . .012 finally repeatable numbers. lets try the left side. .012, .012. okay, so we can say that it is total case thickness both sides at 0.024

so 0.335 - 0.024 = 0.311

now lets try to seat a .311 bullet. this is a sierra 303 caliber .311 diameter spitzer 150 grain fmj soft point.

1. first, prime with autoprimer, cci large rifle primer (tip: i use a zip tie to keep the autoprime handle in the up position when not in use so a primer doesnt float around on top of the priming rod)

2. then charge with 38.1 grains of win 748 as per lee loader data card starting load (equiv to 1 2.5cc dipper by volume). charge is measured out via rcbs charge master 1500 digital scale.

3. seating bullet. using a 1lb brass hammer to push it in.

bullet seated!

okay, in my next post i will begin the drop testing.

 

[silverlance]

here's the finished cartridge.

as you can see it looks pretty good. first, im going to do something very carefully.. im going to (with rifle point in a very safe direction, and with earmuffs on) try to chamber the round. if it goes off it will simply land in dirt. where i am at right now, folks will probably think its a car backfiring or some kid playing with firecrackers. needless to say i still do not want that to happen, so i will be extremely careful.

yup, chambers just perfect (with a little snugness) in my m91/30 sniper. by the way, in my tikka t3 sometimes the rounds wont chamber. anybody got any idea why? the way the theory holds i should be able to simply shove the bolt handle down and fit it in since it is fireformed, but id hate to get a stuck round in the tikka's chamber.

okay, so round fits. everything sounds good. cartridge weight by the way is 348.2. 150 is bullet, 38.1 is powder... so that leaves 160.1 primer + case. the weight of an empty spent-primer case is 160.3... consider that the control case is dirty, this is just about right.

double charges are bad!

 

[silverlance]

to test it, im going to put the round inside a box. then im going to shake it a little bit. then im going to drop it a few times. lets see what happens.

1. box shake test: rocked it back and forth 25 times. box is cardboard. no bullet falling out!

2. drop test. distance is 4 feet. point down. cardboard box on carpet.
test 1- thump. no falling out!
test 2- thump. notice the hole in the box made by the soft point? wow, it looks like lee was right after all. it's not that my bullet is too small - it's that i didn't push that case in deep enough.

this means that i need to somehow get the case quite a bit deeper than the rim of the die. how will i do this, considering that the hammer will end where the die ends? well, ill have to think. possible solutions are to use a piece of nylon or something between case and hammer, so that it gives it that extra little bit of push. i wish i had a ball peen nylon hammer. that would be perfect!

of course, i suppose i could always use a lead hammer.. but i would have to reform it after each loading, and that's just too much work.

total time to reload this round - 1.5 hours. normal reloading time: about 3 minutes total a round (i triple check everything because im paranoid)

kev

(OAL is 2.891)

 

[Sunray]

"...to my existing $320..." For that kind of money or close to it, you can have an RCBS Beginner's Kit and pitch the Lee Loader. Mind you, lots of people started with one.
The Lee Loaders neck size only. Your's isn't sizing properly. You don't need a big heavy plastic mallet for any step with a Lee Loader either.
"...if you put pressure on the caliper im sure you can squeeze the brass and dent it..." Calipres don't require ANY pressure. If you can dent the brass with one, pitch the brass. It's too soft.

 

[silverlance]

I do have a Lee C type press (unassembled). and if it was simply a matter of money Id already have a dillon. the problem is that I dont have a bench, and I dont have a truck that can pick up people's discarded tables when is ee them in the street. i will have to build my own.

further, i neck sizing only has several advantages - brass lasts longer, you dont need to trim as much (three reloadings and the gauge still registers my brass as not needing any trimming), and brass is fireformed to your chamber so accuracy also improves.

lastly, I can do this all at a regular dining table. or at the range. or at work. when i had a conference at a hotel for work, i brough my kit, bag of spent brass, and a hammer. when i left i had 300 primed and sized cases.

i do definitely want to set up a press. that's a dream i have. toward that goal, i'm ordering one of those build-your-own bench kits. until i have the time to take on such a project, however, the lee loader will have to do.

by the way, the 320$ order included 180$ worth of bullets. the rest was ammunition boxes (mtm), sack-ups, and ear plugs.

 

[USSR]

My gawd, silverlance. I would build a freakin' bench out of popsickle sticks and mount that C press on it, before I would pound brass cases into a d@mn die like you are doing. What you're doing is stupid, just plain stupid.

Don

 

[Cosmoline]

I've had some troubles with 54R necks being too wide. I resize them to .308" and simply expand the case mouth with a handy little bullet (very scientific). I then insert the slightly oversized bullet, crimp and it's in there very solid.

I've gone the "hammer time" route before, but it's slow and designed for true REloading in the field. You'd take your kit with you hunting along with some powder and bullets and reload your brass if needed. For true handloading you at least need a hand press. I love the Lee ones, and they only cost about twenty bucks. Mine has lasted thousands of rounds. I like it because I can do my stuff anywhere and I'm not having to bend over a bench for long stretches. Plus the hand press gives me minute control and feel as I seat bullets and the like. For handloading in batches of 50-200 it's fine. Beyond that you should get a big multi-stage benchtop model.

Get that and a standard Lee 54R set with the crimp die and you're golden. That set has lasted me for five years aboud about 10,000 rounds of 54R. You can get a 311 expander but as I said I stick with the 308 expander. Among other things I sometimes use D166 bullets with a nominal diamter of about .309".