My first bullet setback - several Speer brass cases

[IMtheNRA]

I reloaded a few hundred rounds of 9mm today using my own once-fired brass that I collected over the years. None of my brass is mystery range pick up stuff. Almost all of the brass is Winchester from WWB, with a few other headstamps mixed in.

As I was measuring the COAL on some random rounds, I felt the bullet on one of the rounds slide into the case. The bullet bottomed out on the powder charge. With a little effort, I pulled it out of the case with my fingers. I then tested about a hundred rounds by pushing the bullet end into the wooden workbench and found a total of four rounds with loose bullets that can be pushed all the way to the powder charge with just my finger pressure. Every one of these rounds has the "Speer 9mm Luger" headstamp. These Speer cases are different from the rest of the headstamps because their heads seem to be "cupped". I don't know the significance of this, so this is just an observation at this point.

Out of the 7 rounds with Speer brass found so far, 4 hold the bullet so loosely that I can push it in by squeezing the rounds between two fingers.

The bullet is a Winchester 115-grain FMJ FB and all the bullets I pulled out with my fingers measured correctly, .3555 (The digital calipers are accurate to .0005)

The brass came from my friend's factory-new Speer ammo used a couple of months ago. I remember finding some of my friends .45ACP brass from his "Blazer Brass" ammo with the same "cupped" case head. Now this Speer brass is mixed into a few thousand of my cases... Obviously, I now have to sift through all my brass to pull out the Speers.

None of the mixed headstamp rounds I tested so far have had any signs of bullet setback other than this Speer brass.

Has anyone else experienced this problem with Speer brass? Did I just dodge a bullet by avoiding a kB?

 

[Sunray]

Did you use a crimp? A taper crimp will make this go away. You might get away with running all of 'em through a taper crimp die.

 

[IMtheNRA]

I set my seating die to provide a taper crimp. I have a Hornady crimp die, so I think I'll use that now, just to make sure.

While it certainly is possible that I did not provide enough crimp with the seating die, why is this problem only apparent in cartridges made with the Speer brass?

 

[IMtheNRA]

Well, I just got done running all of my 9mm reloads through the Hornady taper die. I adjusted it to provide the same degree of crimp as the Winchester White Box ammo. The rounds feel really nice and the gentle taper crimp measures very consistently with the calipers.

I ran two of the Speer-cased rounds through the taper crimper as well.

NO DIFFERENCE! The bullets are still sliding up and down in the brass.

What's going on?

 

[Sheldon]

Sounds like the sizer die is not sizing the brass down far enough. Make sure the die is screwed down all the way to touch the top of the shell holder, otherwise I'de try another sizing die. The taper crimp die should only be removing the belling, not really crimping the bullet in place. The case tension should be doing the work of holding the bullet in place.

 

[Walkalong]

Ditto on your brass not being sized down enough to get enough neck tension. No amount of crimp will make up for poor neck tension. You can cull thin walled brass or get another sizer. The die company will probably send you a new one if you contact them with the problem. Of course, your expander could be a bit big. Try one of the sized Speer brass and see if the expander will slip right in without expanding any. If so, it's the sizer.

 

[1911user]

I had the same issue with the same type of cases. I switched to a special sizing die made by Lee that sizes 0.001" smaller than the standard 9mm sizing die. It sells for $22 through Evolution Gun Works (often called EGW) and probably a few dollars more direct from Lee. The die itself is often called a U-die and comes in 9mm, 40, and 45acp calibers. With the same brass sized by the u-die, I've had no more bullet setback problems.

What you found was bullet setback and it can be very dangerous especially if using a fast pistol powder like titegroup. Yep, you had a potential KB with the bullets that loose. Try pushing the bullets deeper into the case by pushing against your bench using hand pressure or even better into an old-type bathroom scale. If you can put 50 pounds of pressure and the bullet not seat any deeper, you are set.

One other possibility is the expander is sizing the neck up too much, but the sizing die is more likely the culprit. What brand sizing die are you using? Mine was Hornady and it'd be OK for lead bullets, but I don't trust it with jacketed bullets. A factory Lee 9mm sizing die might solve the issue also.

Another option is to sort your brass and scrap any speer with the cupped head. I'd rather not sort brass by headstamp so I bought a 9mm u-die.

 

[Jordan85]

How would the crimp not being tight enough cause a kB?

 

[IMtheNRA]

I'm using Hornady dies and the sizing die is screwed all the way to the shell plate.

 

[sandy4570]

How would the crimp not being tight enough cause a kB?

Does he means the bullet that push back inside the case and touching powder would create excessive pressure? I , too wonder how would it cause a kb ?

 

[P-32]

Sounds like your friends Speer brass is worn out. Worn out brass also sizes noticeably easier than other brass and will not hold the bullet by case tension. Too much crimp can also expand the case below the crimp enough to loosen case tension on the bullet which will also allow bullet set back.

 

[caz223]

win brass is really good.
Speer brass is poor in 9mm.
I don't use 9mm speer brass.
Another reason to sort by headstamp.
Another way to skin this cat is a combo of EGW undersize die (Which is a modified LEE die.)
Then a redding competition seater die to seat a normal sized bullet in undersized brass.
Take out your lee factory crimp die and use a standard taper crimp die instead, set to take off the belling and that's it. If you use a dillon, you may want to try polishing your powder funnel down a teeny bit, just in case it's oversized. If you're using a standard expander die make double sure you're not over-belling.
I also seem to remember that speer brass is formed a different way, and this affects it's characteristics. Maybe I just hit my head, I dunno.
I seem to remember that WIN brass was draw-formed and bunted, and speer brass was extruded, but this may be exceedingly old info.

 

[JDGray]

You should develop a feel while seating bullets, if one goes in with ease, stop and check. If all the other headstamps are sized right, and has good neck tension, scrap the speer brass. Cripming on auto cases, is used to remove the bell, and will not add neck tension.

 

[Master Blaster]

If the bullet slipped into the case the firing of the primer would cause a squibb and a bullet stuck in the barrel. The next shot you fired if you didnt realize what happened would be the KB.

 

[Walkalong]

At 1:00 AM this morning (got called into work), I did not think of the Lee undersized die. This will, of course, make the problem go away. I would make sure my sizer is in spec (call the maker) and go that route first if it is not. Remington brass is the culprit in .45 ACP, very thin walled.

JDGray had a great point about getting a feel for seating the bullet.

 

[brickeyee]

"If the bullet slipped into the case the firing of the primer would cause a squibb and a bullet stuck in the barrel. The next shot you fired if you didnt realize what happened would be the KB."

Or the reduction in case volume with a bullet pushed in would run the pressure high enough to blow things up.
Seating depth affects the volume the powder has to operate in before the bullet moves.
Seating shorter is well known to increase pressures, and if bad enough can cause a kaboom right then and there.

 

[Virginian]

Sounds like the brass needs annealing. Can happen in rifles too and that is even more scarey. Makes for bigger booms.