I went to the range yesterday and had a problem. I'm a new reloader (I've loaded and shot about 2,000 rounds without a problem) I load handgun only. I don't sort brass but do check case length. So I had some nickel plated brass and loaded it the same as a load that has worked fine before. (7.3 gns of Unique under Magtech 158 grain semi jacketed soft point) From the books I have and internet info this is a mid range load. I had 100 loaded up and shot only six through my ruger gp100 6" bbl. The ejector rod was very hard to push. I got the spent cases out and packed up and went home. I have since become intimate with my here-to-for unused kinetic bullet puller. I know this is a sign of over pressure but I don't know what went wrong. Are nickel plated softer than regular brass? Is that why they expanded more? Help! Thanks in advance...Rick
My first "Issue" with reloading. Help Please!
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Asherdan
Member
How'd the primers look?
Did you re-zero your scale and check charge weight on any of the pulled rounds?
How did you drop charges, with a measure or through the scale for each cartridge? I watch Unique pretty close when using a measure because of it's shape and size.
After that I'd start looking at resizing die setup and measuring case OD.
Good Luck!
Did you re-zero your scale and check charge weight on any of the pulled rounds?
How did you drop charges, with a measure or through the scale for each cartridge? I watch Unique pretty close when using a measure because of it's shape and size.
After that I'd start looking at resizing die setup and measuring case OD.
Good Luck!
Yes I weighed powder (on the pulled rounds in question) and it was good. I drop with a measure but weigh every 3 or 5. I'll measure case OD but I resized these in a bunch that worked fine. Yes unique is different but you can feel when its going to be off (at least for me). Primers look fine. Thanks Rick
RidgwayCO
Member
What COL were you using with these loads? What was the length of your brass? What brand of brass did you experience problems with? How did you measure and drop the powder? This information will help us determine your problem. I'm assuming this is for a .357 Magnum.
jfh
Member.
Have you cleaned the cylinder / chambers?
Were you shooting 38 Specials before this range trip? Did you clean the chambers afterwards? Completely--as in with a brush chucked into a battery-powered drill?
Jim H.
Were you shooting 38 Specials before this range trip? Did you clean the chambers afterwards? Completely--as in with a brush chucked into a battery-powered drill?
Jim H.
Jim, you may have nailed it for me. My friend was with me (new shooter) and didn't want to shoot 357 but something "softer". After 100 rnds of 38 spl we swapped guns. I took the Ruger and loaded up my .357 load as said above. Why is this a problem? How can I avoid this in the future? Did I unload these rounds for nothing? Thats OK better safe than sorry they are ready to be loaded again. So what happens in the cylinder when you shoot different length cartridges? Thanks again.. Rick
bullseye308
Member
Shooting the 38's was most likely the problem. Shooting the shorter round first leaves a buildup in the cylinders that the longer case gets jammed into causing the pressure to buildup some and make the extraction noticeably harder. Just clean the cylinders real good when you shoot both rounds, or shoot the 38's last.
bullseye308
Member
We all had to learn at some point. You are just where a lot of us have been. Some day you will be where a lot of folks want to be. It's one big circle. Glad I was able to beat the others with more knowledge than me this time.
jfh
Member.
rick300, bullseye308 explained the problem. The solution to it is to clean the chambers in the cylinder thoroughly.
You can use a nylon, bronze, or even stainless bore brushes to clean the cylinders. Personally, I generally don't use stainless brushes to avoid the possibility of any scratches--and some of my bore cleaners aggressively act on bronze brushes--so I have settled on a HD-nylon rifle bore brush from Brownell's. IOW, that's the longer one, not a handgun bore brush. For 357 chambers, I use (nominal) .400 and .358 brushes--read on.
I swab the cylinder with my favorite solvent (No. 9, for example, Hoppe's elite bore gel, whatever) by saturating a patch I've held over the brush, and then run this in and out of the chambers--this can be done manually, with just your regular rod. After some soaking, I then work away with the brush chucked into a battery-powered drill running at low speed. Personally, I mentally count to ten for each chamber when I do this. Then I swab with patches, and repeat as needed.
If there is significant buildup, I wrap nominal 1x1" pieces Chore-boy brand copper scrubbers (other brands may be steel, coated with bronze) over the bore brush as a cheap alternative to buying a Lewis Lead Remover and the Lewis replacement patches. However, the Lewis remover does work better, and it may be worth the investment to you.
Most of my reloading for 38/357 is done with lead, so the crud buildup from shooting 38 Special rounds in a 357 chamber is easily visible--and not too hard to remove, providing you stay on it. Get those chambers whistle-clean each time after you shoot.
FWIW, I do NOT clean the bore with the drill and brush--there, I use strictly an in-and-out motion with the typical rod. Bore cleaning includes saturating and soaking, then wicking stuff out with patches, etc. I finish cleaning up with CLP, usually--but leave the bore and chambers fairly dry, as I shoot often.
Jim H.
You can use a nylon, bronze, or even stainless bore brushes to clean the cylinders. Personally, I generally don't use stainless brushes to avoid the possibility of any scratches--and some of my bore cleaners aggressively act on bronze brushes--so I have settled on a HD-nylon rifle bore brush from Brownell's. IOW, that's the longer one, not a handgun bore brush. For 357 chambers, I use (nominal) .400 and .358 brushes--read on.
I swab the cylinder with my favorite solvent (No. 9, for example, Hoppe's elite bore gel, whatever) by saturating a patch I've held over the brush, and then run this in and out of the chambers--this can be done manually, with just your regular rod. After some soaking, I then work away with the brush chucked into a battery-powered drill running at low speed. Personally, I mentally count to ten for each chamber when I do this. Then I swab with patches, and repeat as needed.
If there is significant buildup, I wrap nominal 1x1" pieces Chore-boy brand copper scrubbers (other brands may be steel, coated with bronze) over the bore brush as a cheap alternative to buying a Lewis Lead Remover and the Lewis replacement patches. However, the Lewis remover does work better, and it may be worth the investment to you.
Most of my reloading for 38/357 is done with lead, so the crud buildup from shooting 38 Special rounds in a 357 chamber is easily visible--and not too hard to remove, providing you stay on it. Get those chambers whistle-clean each time after you shoot.
FWIW, I do NOT clean the bore with the drill and brush--there, I use strictly an in-and-out motion with the typical rod. Bore cleaning includes saturating and soaking, then wicking stuff out with patches, etc. I finish cleaning up with CLP, usually--but leave the bore and chambers fairly dry, as I shoot often.
Jim H.
Innovative
Member
rick300 ........
Keep a close eye on your fired primers while working up a load. That will show how high your chamber pressure really is.
There's another common reloading problem that causes tight fitting .38 Special and .357 Mag. handloads. The brass for .38 & .357 is very thin, and it's easy to bulge your cases (at the base) during the crimp operation. You need to use a good roll crimp . . . . . just be sure not to over-do it.
It's also a good idea to check your case width before making up a jillion rounds.
- Innovative
Keep a close eye on your fired primers while working up a load. That will show how high your chamber pressure really is.
There's another common reloading problem that causes tight fitting .38 Special and .357 Mag. handloads. The brass for .38 & .357 is very thin, and it's easy to bulge your cases (at the base) during the crimp operation. You need to use a good roll crimp . . . . . just be sure not to over-do it.
It's also a good idea to check your case width before making up a jillion rounds.
- Innovative
snuffy
Member
Primer appearance is a very poor method of guessing chamber pressure. Especially in a revolver. It's like reading palms to tell the future, unreliable at best.
38 then .357 shooting always involves cleaning the chamber before shooting the .357.
Innovative
Member
snuffy .....
Cleaning your chamber is obvious - especially after shooting cast .38 Spec. bullets.
The reloading manuals give you recommended loads with pressure estimates. However, if you don't examine YOUR fired primers . . . . what method do you use to estimate your chamber pressure?
- Innovative
Cleaning your chamber is obvious - especially after shooting cast .38 Spec. bullets.
The reloading manuals give you recommended loads with pressure estimates. However, if you don't examine YOUR fired primers . . . . what method do you use to estimate your chamber pressure?
- Innovative
I agree with snuffy. Primers are a poor method of reading presure. They can be helpful, but by the time they show high pressure in low pressure pistol rounds like .45 & .38 Spl, you are way too high. Nice flat primers in .44 Mag are no big deal. You can't tell the difference between a full pressure load and one that is over 10% to 15%. By the time the brass is flowing into the firing pin hole, again, you are way over.
Primers for telling pressures can be helpful, but most certainly not definitive.
Primers for telling pressures can be helpful, but most certainly not definitive.
twice barrel
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Checking primers is an excellent quick barometer if you use the same primer from the same lot to work up your loads. But its not the end-all. Difficult extraction can be another but in this instance crud in the chambers is a good suspect.
Nickeled cases are fine but tend to split earlier than straight brass.
Regards,
TB
Nickeled cases are fine but tend to split earlier than straight brass.
Regards,
TB
jfh
Member.
Reading primers for excessive pressure is somewhat better than...
reading goat entrails, but not by much. IMO.
First things first, on a general level: The same Small Pistol Primer can be used in 38 Special (max. CIP pressure <=21,750 psi), .40 S&W (max = 35,000 psi), and in 357 Magnum (max=43,500 CUP; current max, 35,000 PSI).
Yes, I agree that we can usually see the difference between a primer shot from a 38 Special and one shot from a 357 Magnum--but does the one shot at 35,000+ show any real 'warning signs?'
With that in mind, here's a picture. Obviously, there were five 38 Special cases fired from this handgun (a S&W 640 / 357 frame). Equally obviously, there were 'probably' overpressure--the cases were hard to extract, and three of them had the heads shear off when using a range rod to drive them out.
The picture is, I think of sufficient quality to at least guesstimate a pressure level--anyone care to do so?
FWIW, working backwards, I was able to determine what charge had been dropped, and from there, a member of another forum did the pressure calculations.
After some comments, I will reveal the details....
Jim H.
reading goat entrails, but not by much. IMO.
First things first, on a general level: The same Small Pistol Primer can be used in 38 Special (max. CIP pressure <=21,750 psi), .40 S&W (max = 35,000 psi), and in 357 Magnum (max=43,500 CUP; current max, 35,000 PSI).
Yes, I agree that we can usually see the difference between a primer shot from a 38 Special and one shot from a 357 Magnum--but does the one shot at 35,000+ show any real 'warning signs?'
With that in mind, here's a picture. Obviously, there were five 38 Special cases fired from this handgun (a S&W 640 / 357 frame). Equally obviously, there were 'probably' overpressure--the cases were hard to extract, and three of them had the heads shear off when using a range rod to drive them out.
The picture is, I think of sufficient quality to at least guesstimate a pressure level--anyone care to do so?
FWIW, working backwards, I was able to determine what charge had been dropped, and from there, a member of another forum did the pressure calculations.
After some comments, I will reveal the details....
Jim H.
Last edited:
Jesse Heywood
Member
My swag is around 40,000. That's from looking at the bulging ring around the firing pin.
Innovative
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jfh
My first guess is that the primers in the photo are really Small Rifle primers. However, there are a number of reasons for this high pressure mishap. The forcing cone and cylinder could easily be leaded badly enough to cause an extreme wide range of chamber pressure. I've also seen high pressures caused by loads that were well "below" the recommended minimum. The bullets could also have exceeded the bore diameter, or you could have a combination of these causes. It's amazing to see the mishaps that shooters get themselves into. I'll be the first to say that I haven't seen them all.
- Innovative
My first guess is that the primers in the photo are really Small Rifle primers. However, there are a number of reasons for this high pressure mishap. The forcing cone and cylinder could easily be leaded badly enough to cause an extreme wide range of chamber pressure. I've also seen high pressures caused by loads that were well "below" the recommended minimum. The bullets could also have exceeded the bore diameter, or you could have a combination of these causes. It's amazing to see the mishaps that shooters get themselves into. I'll be the first to say that I haven't seen them all.
- Innovative
nastynatesfish
Member
try some reloader 2400
I load .38 Spl power loads in .357 brass for my guns, just so I don't have to fool with cleaning the chambers out after shooting .38 brass. Lazy I guess, cause it really isn't that hard to do. It aslo solves the problem of potential overpressure from shooting .357 loads in chambers that are smaller in diameter at the front of the case from buildup from shooting .38s in them.
Millions of .38 rounds are shot through .357's without problems. One just has to keep in mind that builup may occur and make sure it is not excessive before shooting .357 loads.
Millions of .38 rounds are shot through .357's without problems. One just has to keep in mind that builup may occur and make sure it is not excessive before shooting .357 loads.
Innovative
Member
I've fired .38 Spec. loads in my .357 Mag. Python for almost 30 years without any problems. However, I use a special hand reamer (available from Brownells) that's designed to quickly un-lead the chambers in your cylinder with just a few turns. I often shoot hot .357 Mag. "dragon loads" after a good cleaning.
- Innovative
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SSN Vet
Member
You obviously don't go to the same Madam as I
I'm with Walkalong.... and am all done shooting .38 spcl from my .357 (a Taurus 689)
I've cleaned and cleaned those darn cylinders and I can still see a ring!!!
Downloading .357 cases for mild plinkers is the way to go for me...
Something in the neighborhood of 4 to 4.5 gr of W231 should pleasantly pop off your 158 gr. bullets.
I got a new Ruger GP-100 for Christmas and had the same problem. I was using handloads that were proven safe in a Ruger SP-101. The primer looked normal. I literally had to tap the ejector rod on the edge of a wooden table to get them to eject. The load was 125 gr. JHP, 8.1 grs. of W231 and a standard CCI primer (MAX was 8.5). I also shot some 158 gr. JHP with 15.9 grs. of IMR 4227. They ejected normal.
Innovative
Member
There's no doubt about it. If you shoot .38 Spec. loads in your .357 Mag. chamber, you need to clean your firearm 100% perfectly. That's pretty obvious to most shooters. This is no place to get lazy.
- Innovative
- Innovative
James2
Member
If you reload there is no reason to use 38 brass in a 357. Trade that 38 stuff for 357 brass and kiss the problem goodbye. You can load the 357 brass to whatever velocity you want.
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