My first look at a Remigton 105 CTi

[PJR]

I put my hands on a Remington 105 CTi for the first time today. It is owned by a friend at the club who brought it out today to give it a test run.

This gun should never have left the factory. The most noticeable flaw was the rib. It was higher on the left side than the right and not centered on top of the barrel. The rib defect made the barrel look like it was twisted when the gun was shouldered.

The gun repeatedly malfunctioned with Winchester Super Target promo loads although did work with other ammo. Frustrated my friend went back to his truck and retrieved his tried and true Beretta Teknys to finish the round.

The CTi was supposed to be Remington's answer to the Beretta 391 and Browning Gold and is priced accordingly. If what I saw today is reflective of the entire line then Remington has seriously missed the boat again.

 

[sm]

PJR,
I appreciate your honest and candid review.
Mirrors what others are saying about that particular gun, and Big Green's other offerings for some time now including my own.

I often type OLDer when I refer to firearms, and this is for a reason.
OLDer made firearms were made better, with better metallurgy, quality control, and by folks that were allowed to do their jobs by employers that cared about putting out on the market a quality product, with service to back it up.

Makes no difference who the company is, applicable to many, including Remington.

Rem 3200 - very fine shotgun! Still holds the "fastest lock-time" title.

Rem came out with the Peerless and the ad said something to the effect of
"In the tradition of the 3200..." and I told the Rem Rep, that was a slap in the face to not only the 3200, also the owners of 3200s.


Re-badged Baikels, being sold - again....Big Green...well.

Give me a brand new 105 CTi, and I will swap it for a OLDer 1100, with a fixed choked barrel in a heartbeat!

OLDer 1100, with a fixed choked barrel , and multi piece gas system is a better gun. I will even say this is a better gun than the 11-87!

Beretta, Get on the ball with semi auto 28 ga guns Please.

Heck, give me a Beretta 303 over this new 105CTi !

I'd swap a new 105CTi for a Beretta 303 too!

 

[evbutler462]

I am predicting that Remington's glory days are behind it. They made some good guns in their day. They are producing questionable products now that they want the customer to iron the bugs out of.

Maybe the new owners will either fix Remington or do whatever new investment companies do when they take over failing companies.

They could have stuck with the 870 and 1100 and had many loyal customers. To allow a new untested gun with no quality control to be put on the shelves is a fast way to lose customer loyalty.

 

[ArmedBear]

The gun repeatedly malfunctioned with Winchester Super Target promo loads

That crap doesn't feed in a lot of pump guns. It seems it's often not properly sized (I have a gauge I use for reloading). Remington's Sport Loads are my favorite cheap box ammo (good for reloading, too, if you resize your bases), with Federal a close second. I don't even buy the Winchester promo target loads.

That said, the other stuff about the 105CTi is inexcusable, and downright sad. I have an old 1100, and it remains an exemplary shotgun after 36 years. How the mighty have fallen, it seems.

I've shot a good 105 at a factory demo shoot, and it's a great design IMO. However, the best design in the world isn't worth anything if it's built like junk. What a waste!

I hope they sell the engineering to someone else who will build it right. Browning, are you listening?

(Note the Krieghoff still produces the Remington Model 32, and it's still one of the world's great shotguns after 75 years. Krieghoff builds it RIGHT, but for a price most of us can't afford, and most of the rest wouldn't choose to spend.)

With all of that said, I live in a state with a 3-shot limit for all shotgun hunting. Like many others, I'm finding semiautos to be less and less appealing. 3 shots through one choke constriction with a semi, or 2 shots through 2 different chokes with a double. Either way, you gain something and lose something, but most of the time I think I'll take 2 chokes over the extra shot which I rarely use.

If I could get a semiauto I liked for under $600 new, that would be one thing, but for $1200+, there are other options! The point of a semi was once that it was cheaper. Some plastic Benellis are going for MORE than a nice Browning O/U these days.

Sure, for special uses, like heavy waterfowl loads, a gas-operated semi has real advantages like low recoil. The Extrema 2, for example, has real appeal for that. But for common upland and target loads, the newfangled recoil pads are sufficient.

 

[sm]

Good points!

Most hunters only take two shots at game anyway. Ethical hunters, do take the time, and make the effort to know loads and patterns from their guns, and have put in the trigger time to have skills.
Three shots are rarely needed, much less taken.

Clay games restrict folks to two shells maximum being loaded, there are rare exceptions, still the two shell limit is the majority rule.

Semi's - Well I run a Super X Model 1, as many did for Skeet, Trap, hunting, and even the early defensive shotgun disciplines before 3 gun and others ever came to be.
Machined steel and all - the 1100 with stamped parts, sold for less, it worked, and is one big reason the SX1 did not continue being mfg'd.

Less Felt recoil, folks shot 4 of the same guns, in different gauges in Skeet.
Folks did the same with Pump guns, the 870 the more well known, the Win 1300 the other, as it was made in all four gauges at one time as well.

Money.
Some folks just could not afford a nice O/U, especially a 3 or 4 barrel set, and the tube sets...had not really come to be, and when they did, folks waited to see.

Semis such as SX1, Beretta 302/303, 1100s were THE ticket!

While I personally feel - for me - at this time of my life a SxS would fit my needs, I mean just a 20 and 28 ga gauge would suit me fine.

O/U just are more acceptable and easier to find.

Two shots, with two different fixed choked barrels and a bonus would be two triggers.

Defensive use:
Yes I know some are reading and turning up noses at two barrel guns.

Awerbuck travels with a two barrel gun.

Fits travel, various jurisdictions in regard to "legal" , type of platforms, easy to take down...whatever.

$$$$ for a stamped out gun, some are plastic, some one cannot mess with gun fit, and they will not run, ugly as a toothless witch and a scrap 2x4 comes to shoulder and swings better...

I do not see these being of any "value" a few years down the road either.

Older 311 would be a better buy for many folks hunting, especially bird and small game.
Fun as all get out on a skeet field, 5 stand, even Sporting clays...

Find a SKB O/U, and have a better gun as well.

Folks teach folks how to treat them.

For way too long the buyer has allowed the mfg to run over them...
Folks should have spoken up sooner and louder, and perhaps some of these companies would not have had such a long run of the stupids.

It all comes out in the wash as they say...
Big Green got by too long, and now finds themselves in the bottom of the laundry basket...

How is Ithaca coming along?
Still rather have OLDer one of them as well...

 

[PJR]

Armed Bear, we don't disagree on the Winchester ammo but this situation was peculiar. It would work in the gun if the barrel was level or pointed down. If the gun was pointed up it wouldn't. Meanwhile it worked fine in my friend's other gun.

Remington is not the only maker to send out a gun that is not up to par. I've seen it in other makers including Perazzi and Beretta. But I've never consistently seen so many problems as with Remington.

Steve makes a good point about older guns. I currently have an 80's vintage 870, an early 90's 1100 and a Wingmaster made in 2002. In a side by side comparison it's not hard to see where corners were cut.

I was of two minds posting my comments about the CTi. I really wanted this gun to be the beginning of a new era in Remington guns. The design and features are intriguing and the bottom eject system and trigger systems are innovative and appealing. OTOH, if a company puts out a sample of a gun for which they charge a premium price it shouldn't let less than premium examples go out the door.

 

['Card]

I'm not much of a shotgunner (squirrel hunting and home defense are about all I do with scatterguns) but the thread title caught my eye.

It kind of makes me wonder if Remington's rifles and their shotguns are made in different facilities or by different people, because just about everything I've heard about their rifles over the last few years has been positive - and just about everything I've heard about their shotguns lately has been the opposite.

 

[evbutler462]

IF American gun makers, though few they be, don't get on the ball with quality control, foreign competition is going to take over completely. Sorry, but that is the way it is. You will occasionally find a name brand foreign gun with problems but it is rare. If it ain't right we read about it on these forums. It seems that a high number of American mades are apparently put on the market without QC having checked them.

It bothers me when a major company puts a product on the market before the bugs are ironed out. With the gun market as tight as it is and factories being sold or closed, QC should be extremely tight. Too many guns are being delivered to the customer that just doesn't deliver what their propoganda promises. Chokes missing, ribs not properly attached, pins and screws missing, etc.

All my guns are old SKB's, Brownings, Franchis, and a sprinkling of other lesser brands.

I normally buy older guns that were made with pride instead of "getting them out the door and if anything is wrong the customer will return it".

Every gun made should be tested to determine if it will live up to it's promises. It might add a few bucks to the price but will be worth it and just might save the American gun industry. To handpick a gun for a news editor to use and write about is unethical, to say the least.

Why don't I buy American made guns? They may or may not work. The only guns I have that were made in America is a Winchester made in 1960 of machined steel, a Savage O/U from the 1950's, and a High Standard from the 1950's. All others are foreign made older guns.

It is understood that some foreign guns have problems. Usually they are the cheaper utility guns that cost much less than an American made counterpart.

My two cents worth.

 

[sm]

PJR,

Everyone.

Old Fuff is another that for a long time has shared that "we" as gun owners need to inform not only each other of flaws, also to be sure to inform firearm mfgs, that we are not going to put up with flaws, poor service, anything.
Not just Shotgun mfgs either.

Internet is Real Time, as we have seen recently in regard to many areas of discussion on fora.

Firearm Mfgs have not had to deal with this medium of communication before and - they are being "educated" as to how fast news travels.
Perhaps Internet will assist in mfgs changing ways, and getting their acts together.

Another company I am concerned about is H&R / NEF.
Just a old timeless classic single shot shotgun with a proven history.

Extra barrels/ barrel sets for these receivers I last heard were being discontinued.
This "concerns me".
Quite a few folks have a .22 lr barrel and .410 for instance
Or any number of variations of shotgun/ rim fire/ center fire.

I have not heard the latest on all this, just my concern was H&R might be considering "outsourcing" these classic single shots.
There is a long, and fascinating history of H&R and NEF.

Many of us, got pretty upset when the pump gun under this company name, was an import.

This is why some of us are "concerned" with the discontinuing of barrels for receivers - "outsourcing and re-badging".

Matter of principal, even if the shotgun is just a single shot.
Hence the reason many are buying single shot H&R/NEFs and not only new ones, also those Older ones in pawn shops and Mom&Pop Gun stores...

Pretty darn sad when an OLD $20 single shot shotgun has better QC, fit and finish than currently mfg'd $$$ shotgun today.

 

[Oldnamvet]

This mirror what I have seen in the only 105CTi I have held. It would only run with shells with more than 1 oz of shot. Factory confirmed that it was designed that way. Trigger was great and recoil was very soft.
Steve,
Sorry to hear that single shots quality may be declining. I only have one, given to me by my father when I was 11. 50 years later, the little Stevens 94C .410 full choke is still the best gun for me when I was after rabbit and squirrel. It took its share of pheasants too back in Iowa. It never broke down. Anymore it gets out about once a year for a go at skeet or trap since I don't hunt much anymore. Just waiting until my grandson is old enough for it.

 

[toivo]

The most noticeable flaw was the rib. It was higher on the left side than the right and not centered on top of the barrel. The rib defect made the barrel look like it was twisted when the gun was shouldered.

This sounds like a problem I had with a Mossberg 500. On that gun, the problem wasn't the barrel or rib at all, but a faulty barrel stop inside the receiver that made it impossible to align the barrel properly on the gun. The barrel ended up rotated a few degrees from where it should be, causing the rib to not be at TDC.

Not sure if it's the same problem, but it sounds very similar.

 

[ArmedBear]

It kind of makes me wonder if Remington's rifles and their shotguns are made in different facilities or by different people, because just about everything I've heard about their rifles over the last few years has been positive

They have a bad habit of introducing good new designs with glaring but easily-fixable flaws, e.g. the 597. Furthermore, the 710 is a rifle. So I wouldn't say everything.

My Express (built in '05 I think, maybe '04) has been fine. No trouble at all, no QC problems. For a gun that cost me $235 NIB, I won't complain! Go ahead and bash the Express for being cheapened, but I've put a lot of rounds through it without a hitch. If it actually breaks, then I'll bitch.

That said, it's the only new shotgun I've ever bought. I have an old Remmie, an old SKB, and old Browning, and old Ithaca. They're all quite well-made.

I haven't seen an Ohio Ithaca, so I'll reserve judgment. I will say that the new SKB and Browning guns I've handled or used have been as good as the old ones. Frankly, the 1100 G3 models and Wingmasters at the store seem to be excellent in terms of fit and finish, as were the 11-87 Premier models a year ago. I don't know about the innards.

The 105 problems, though, might be "not ready for prime time" problems with a new design. Remington is known for those, lately. They are, however, different from an overall problem with QC. I know few people who have new higher-end Remingtons, but a lot of people with older ones. So I can't say from experience if the higher-end guns have gone downhill.

 

[ArmedBear]

One more thing...

I have bought more brand-new Rugers than any other make. They all were well fit, well-finished (two are blued and the blueing is VERY tough, deep, and perfect all around). They all worked fine out of the box; I didn't have to do any QC when I got home. This has been in the last few years.

Not all American guns are shoddy IMO. Not Rugers.

But this is the shotgun forum, and I don't have or plan to get a Ruger shottie at this point. I once shot a Gold Label, and I liked it, but I'm not shelling out the dough for it.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

With all the hype for the 105 it's sure hilarious to watch them not deliver.


My shotguns will continue to come from italy.


Well, till I get some money together for a nice Japanese made 28Ga.

 

[ArmedBear]

With all the hype for the 105 it's sure hilarious to watch them not deliver.

My shotguns will continue to come from italy.

I can't say I think it's funny.

I've shot a prototype that was made with care, and I'd rather have a 105CTi -- built well -- than an Italian semiauto. Sad thing is, I can't get one.

This is a waste of a wonderful design.

 

[PJR]

I don't find the ongoing reports about the CTi funny in the slightest. More disappointing than anything else.

Armed Bear is right about the design. It's innovative and wasted.

Unfortunately however my semis will continue to come from Italy as well or from an earlier Remington era.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

It is innovative. As an engineer I can appreciate it.


I just wish it was another company making it and doing it well.


As someone who has owned Remingtons and willfully choosing to shoot Benellis and Berettas then having to listen to people going on non stop about how i should have gotten a remington instead. it's just fun.

 

[ih88]

just to be fair to the 105, i have had one for over a month now with about a thousand rounds through it. all shells i tried with the exception of the cheap winchester hulls works fine. my gun and about 6 or so that i have looked at in cabelas, a few bass pro shops and grice guns have all looked excellent. i believe the majority of these guns are just fine. of course remington should never have let these few bad ones out. i know they know what is being said on these forums, and hopefully will act accordingly. have fun shooting. jim.

 

[orionshooter]

Friends do not let friends buy 105CTI's - I've had nothing but problems with mine.

At first, off center hits on the primer causing misfires. Sent it to the factory where it sat for six weeks "waiting for parts"

When it came back, the barrel rib no longer lined up with the receiver and the wood forend was getting eaten up by the bottom ejected shells.

Sent it back to the factory again this time for another six weeks.

Armed Bear - buying a well built 105CTI is like trying to own a pink elephant. It just does not exist and I agree that Remington has seen it best days. See the following photos"

Here's the first problem brand new and right out of the box;



And this is the hack job the factory did on my brand new gun after six weeks in their "repair" facility.





Who knows what will be next with this piece of Rem-trash.

Thank God for Beretta which is now my primary scattergun - the 105CTI is now a loaner ( I loan it to Remington for twelve weeks each year to "repair it").

 

[PJR]

orionshooter, thanks for those pics. All I can say is

Any company that would let that off center firing pin leave the factory should be ashamed of itself. The first time that gun went back Remington should have replaced the entire gun and apolgized.

 

[orionshooter]

I couldnt agree with you more PJR - they may still end up eating this gun if I have any more probs with it.

 

[Red Label]

Thank God for my old Remingtons and my Rugers! From what I have seen in the last ten years or so, Ruger may have been heading down the poor QC path also but got it nipped in the bud pretty quick. I had heard some war stories about them some time back but nothing but good lately. I hope Remington learns a lesson soon before its too late!