My idea of the ultimate pistol

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NorthGeorgiaHunter

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Tonight I've been thinking about the ultimate pistol with a fine Malbec. At one time I thought the HK mod23 was the ultimate pistol and I came close to buying one more than once. I have gone full circle with my thoughts of the ultimate pistol and I have come to the conclusion that I already own the ultimate pistol. I know that many will likely disagree but the 10mm auto is my choice as the ultimate cartridge. The Smith and Wesson 3rd generation pistols were some of the toughest, most rugged pistols of all time. To me the ultimate pistol is the one I already own, the 1006. I know the ammo is rare and expensive, but not for the reloaded.

The 10mm auto is a very versatile cartridge, much like the .308 Winchester. What do y'all think?
 
i think 38 super has more potential.. you could have higher capacity in a slimmer grip and come close to or even match .357 mag ballistics if you increase the pressures using cheap .223 brass.. and thats another reason i think a rimless 38 super would be better, if you make brass from .223 its so much cheaper than any of the brass youd find for 10mm
 
I like your idea. Maybe the ultimate pistol would be a gen 3 s&w in .38 super! I really like the not so normal calibers. I find the 9mm, 40 s&w and .45acp boring.
 
justin22885 said:
i think 38 super has more potential.. you could have higher capacity in a slimmer grip and come close to or even match .357 mag ballistics if you increase the pressures using cheap .223 brass.. and thats another reason i think a rimless 38 super would be better, if you make brass from .223 its so much cheaper than any of the brass youd find for 10mm
Click to expand...


That would be the 9mm Super Cooper.
 
I will agree with you...the 1006 is one of the best handguns chambered for one of the best cartridges.

A buddy of mine owns a 1006 with adjustable sights and he has taken several deer with it out to 50 yards. The 180 Grain Hornady XTPs at 1300 fps work very well.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
thats my point though.. NO ONE makes a specific 38 super pistol, theyre all based on 1911 weapons and because of this the grips are way wider than they need to be.. many people complain about the width of a doublestack 45acp in a 1911, but a doublestack 38 super with a frame width only wide enough for a doublestack 38 super mag would feel no fatter than the average doublestack 9 mil

some advantages to this cartridge though.. pushing a 147 grain .355" or even a 158 grain .357" bullet at the same velocities a 9mm pushes a 124 grain out of the same barrel length, or pushing a 180 grain .357" at 1100fps for suppression.. it would make a great general purpose caliber that could be great in self defense, suppressed, be more comfortable to carry more rounds and so dirt cheap to handload

how many of you are familiar and experienced with 3D printing?.. i wonder if an STI 2011 frame could be used with a custom grip frame for a slimmer 38 super mag
 
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"thats my point though.. NO ONE makes a specific 38 super pistol, theyre all based on 1911 weapons and because of this the grips are way wider than they need to be.."
You mean a Tokarev, or the various 9mm Largo guns? For the Tok, you'd have plenty length to play with (and then some, if you care to do a 9-25mm Mauser thing) and practically limitless action strength (also unlikely to be the limiting factor in the Largo guns, though buffering or braking may be needed to reduce frame wear). Another option is to just use a 1911 frame and don't put grips on it; a friend made his own 10mm from a casting, and put a little silver-dollar size patch of buffalo-horn to cover the magwell lightening holes, and then sculpted the rest of the steel frame into a more contoured shape. Seemed pretty comfortable and very skinny.

From Wiki on 9mm Mauser:
"The .38 Super data may possibly be more consistent with the original factory loading, as these had a claimed muzzle velocity of approx. 1362 fps with a 128 gr. bullet."
 
NO ONE makes a specific 38 super pistol,
Click to expand...

Well, almost. Caspian makes only parts, not whole guns, but their Double Stack was designed when 20 .38 Supers was a lot and they didn't care that their narrower frame would only hold a 10 shot .45 magazine.
 
you know.. a 7.62x25 pistol would be a great start for a dedicated .38 super pistol.. but for the sake of doublestacks, does anyone make a good doublestack x25? and im unaware of a lot of pistols outside of spanish manufacture to use 9mm largo
 
outside of caliber.. features i think would make an ideal pistol is some kind of locking mechanism that lends itself to better accuracy.. the old german pistols like the luger, mauser, etc had a fixed barrel to slide and recoiled straight back which made them very accurate pistols, should a pistol be made today with a locked barrel and slide, with sights mounted to that slide your sight and barrel geometry would never change, youd have significant accuracy

another option that could lend itself to great accuracy are fixed barrel designs utilizing some kind of a delayed blowback mechanism.. such as the gas delay on the HK P7 or roller delay

if we have a fixed barrel to frame in a delayed blowback, id place the barrel as low as possible to get the lowest bore axis possible, id place the recoil spring on top of even around the barrel.. when using a suppressor the standard sights would clear it just fine

and lastly, id want a striker fired light DAO for first to last shot consistency and second strike capabilities and simplicity
 
"does anyone make a good doublestack x25?"

Norinco, but you have to move to Canada. Probably not worth it. Also, the Mauser and Luger are short recoil just like the Beretta M9, they just have a barrel that does not tilt or rotate, but still slides. I also would not call the Mauser accurate since it is so painful and uncomfortable to shoot :D

I think you are on the right track, though; that is why I'm designing a fixed barrel Pedersen action in x25 from 1911 parts.

TCB
 
mauser and luger barrels move with the slide, but they still stop with the slide, they dont unlock from it, instead they have a separate bolt, this is what unlocks and reciprocates to cycle the action.. mauser with its falling block and the luger with its toggle lock but the barrels are fixed to the slides.. in fact its typically machined out all in one piece on the mauser and the luger barrel threads into the slide

i like the idea of delayed blowbacks though because unlike the mauser and its pistols based off it, the luger, and the browning actions with all those pistols based off that.. a blowback pistols barrel doesnt move while the bullets traveling down the barrel.. this is why i really hope walther at some point makes a full size duty/tactical version of their CCP
 
It depends on what you want to do with the handgun. When most people think about semi-auto handguns they are thinking only about protection from human threats. The hotter 9mm cartridges certainly fill that role.

But a properly loaded 10mm comes the closest to providing true magnum revolver power in a compact, high capacity semi-auto. When fired from barrels 4" and shorter even the best 44 magnum loads come up way short of advertised speeds. Double Tap offers the hottest 10mm load I've found, 1300 fps for 200 gr hardcast chronographed from my 4.5" G20. That is better than most 124 gr 9mm loads. A 44 mag with an 8" barrel beats that handily, but from a 3"-4" barrel is scarcely better than 10mm from a more compact 4"-5" barrel.

I carry those in bear country, but 155's @ about 1400 fps are hot enough for other occasions and the option exists for 40 S&W loads. In fact 40S&W ammo feeds, and fires just fine from my Glock 20 and 29 adding even more versatility.

I'll have to 2nd the 10mm choice as the ultimate semi-auto round if you include 4 legged predators or big game hunting. I have Glocks, but wouldn't mind picking up a 1006 one day if I ever find one at a fair price at the same time I have expendable income.
 
I'm in with another nod for the 10mm. My Delta still sits unfired (by me) but this was basically my reasoning behind buying it...

I like versatility. I love my wheelguns simply because I can go big or small in all capacities. I especially like 32 calibers for this reason but even the .327 federal falls short of being adequate for many purposes. 38/357 is great, as is 44spl/mag, but these are all limited to one diameter bullet even though they do offer different power levels in different cases.

To avoid the issue of a single bore size you have to jump to another extreme (which I also love) in the single shot realm. TC contenders and encore pistols let you go from 22 short all the way up to some real thumpers like 45-70, but now your limited to a single shot.

So, I want multiple power levels with multiple bore sizes..in a repeating firearm...not an easy chore right? Wrong. Companies like lone wolf make that easy on glock frames...but my bone structure is such that I can't comfortably shoot a glock. My options were pretty limited, and a 1911 seemed the best fit. 7 (8) rds of 45 acp, 8 (9) rds of 10mm, options for 38 super, 40sw, 9mm, even 357 mag if I went to a coonan. I lucked up on my delta. I will fit other top ends to the frame as time and money permit.
 
Ah, I see what you mean, now; barrel integral to the slide (rails). :) That would seem to be the ultimate for maintaining sight picture to bore relationship, at least theoretically. I'd see if we can't find a way to do it more inexpensively than Mauser or Luger this go-around, though :D

The primary disadvantage, I would think, is that you're gonna end up with a lot more moving mass to arrest at the end of travel; normally you get to stop the barrel, then the slide/bolt, but here it'll be all at the same time. And it'll all have to be moving fast enough to facilitate ejection (unless the manner in which the bolt unlocks performs this function).

However, you will have the opportunity for some truly unique locking systems, like falling block (figure out how to get the Madsen LMG into a pistol, and I'll be a happy customer) or of course, toggle :cool:

TCB
 
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well, the falling block idea was in the mauser, and was also modified for the P38 and beretta handguns to combine the barrel and the slide as opposed to the mausers falling block that linked the slide/barrel assembly to the bolt.. also the bergmann bayard pistol i believed used a type of falling block that went around the bolt and was pushed upwards against a block in the slide to lock them together when they reached forward.. this was very simply done, also, go on youtube sometime and check out forgotten weapons video on the mauser 06/08 pistol

personally though i still like the idea of delayed blowback because with recoil operation even if you have perfect sight to barrel geometry at all time, fact is those barrels tend to move before the bullets even leave the chamber.. granted theres a huge advantage if it isnt also tilting upwards at the same time and is just recoiling straight back

lugers and mausers are definitely complex.. take a look inside a 712 mauser sometime and you'll wonder how they ever managed to get that mess to work
 
NorthGeorgiaHunter said:
Tonight I've been thinking about the ultimate pistol with a fine Malbec. At one time I thought the HK mod23 was the ultimate pistol and I came close to buying one more than once. I have gone full circle with my thoughts of the ultimate pistol and I have come to the conclusion that I already own the ultimate pistol. I know that many will likely disagree but the 10mm auto is my choice as the ultimate cartridge. The Smith and Wesson 3rd generation pistols were some of the toughest, most rugged pistols of all time. To me the ultimate pistol is the one I already own, the 1006. I know the ammo is rare and expensive, but not for the reloaded.

The 10mm auto is a very versatile cartridge, much like the .308 Winchester. What do y'all think?
Click to expand...
Yes, I would say the G40 is one of the best offensive guns one can buy. The 10mm cartridge gives very good performance with reasonable amount of recoil. I found standard G20 to be very easy gun to shoot well. The G40 should prove to be even better than the legendary G20.
 
hmm, i just learned about the arsenal strike 1 pistol.. turns out it uses the falling block system that was used in the bergmann pistols that i said would be a great locking system for a modern pistol.. seems people are realizing john brownings idea wasnt all that great afterall as the bergmann system in the strike one is proving to be more reliable, more accurate, and cheaper to produce (though those pistols cost a ton) and theres even a rumor about them making a .38 super version, with no interest as of yet for a 10mm or 45acp version, which means IF they make a 38 super version itll be designed only for 38 super and will have a slimmer grip designed around it

could very well become what in my opinion would be the ultimate pistol
 
There were plenty of guns chambered in .38 Super in the past. No one bought them so they stopped making them. I owned a 15 shot Astra in .38 Super in '83. I'm pretty sure Sig was making the 226 back then in it as well. It was a good gun. I got tired of paying too much for ammo when I could even find ammo.
 
the old german pistols like the luger, mauser, etc had a fixed barrel to slide and recoiled straight back
Click to expand...

Have you ever shot a luger, mauser, etc? Even if you haven't it's not hard to find a video of one being fired and observe the recoil.

Just a quick observation of the height of the barrel axis above the grip on any of them should make it obvious that the recoil is not going to be anywhere near "straight back".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqvDR6c-jrw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzqbJeDHK64
 
JohnBlitz

I know SIG made the P220 (for Browning as the BDA), in .38 Super but wasn't aware of any P226s made in that caliber. But you're right, the single stack BDAs in 9mm. and .38 Super were incredibly slow movers. I remember seeing them in a number of gun shops heavily discounted just to get rid of them. Should have picked some up when I had a chance but I was more interested in Colt Commanders in .38 Super back then.

And yes factory ammo is a bit pricey but I have found some cheaper stuff at the local gun shows (like Fiocchi and Aguila +P), and I use to reload for it as well.
 
"could very well become what in my opinion would be the ultimate pistol"

Might wanna check on the Strike One's trigger design before such proclamations ;)

TCB
 
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