My new 686 has a "feature"!!
- Thread starter Japle
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Jim Watson
Member
"They’ve seen cylinders like this in the scrap bins,"
So the final inspector was asleep at the switch.
But, as the old machinist said, a program error in a CNC will turn out scrap faster than ever before possible.
Nice of them to let you keep the dud cylinder and agree not to mess with your action job.
When I had my 7 converted to 6 because nobody would buy or trade for it, they left my action job intact, too.
So the final inspector was asleep at the switch.
But, as the old machinist said, a program error in a CNC will turn out scrap faster than ever before possible.
Nice of them to let you keep the dud cylinder and agree not to mess with your action job.
When I had my 7 converted to 6 because nobody would buy or trade for it, they left my action job intact, too.
aHFo3
Member
Good for you! And good for S&W for doing the right thing. That'll look sweet with an unfluted cylinder. My only gun selling regret is offloading a 629 classic hunter 8 3/8 with the unfluted cylinder.
What're you going to do with the 6/7 cylinder?
What're you going to do with the 6/7 cylinder?
jojo200517
Member
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- 580
I too wanna know what you'll do with the messed up cylinder, conversation piece? paper weight?
I say get the unfluted one even if it costs ya a few bucks more, it'll look good and ya know it won't have too many flutes.
I say get the unfluted one even if it costs ya a few bucks more, it'll look good and ya know it won't have too many flutes.
It'll be fun showing it around at the range for laughs.
I'll be seeing Jerry Miculek at the Steel Challenge Nationals in late March. He'll get a kick out of it, I'm sure!
I'll be sending this pic and a couple of others with the gun.
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I got a FedEx label from S&W, packed the gun along with a letter and some photos (since I'm keeping the screwed up cylinder) and called FedEx for a pickup. They collected it this afternoon.
In my letter, I requested that they leave the action alone and install a non-fluted cylinder.
Now we wait.
In my letter, I requested that they leave the action alone and install a non-fluted cylinder.
Now we wait.
tikka-guy
Member
I'm curious, did you explicitly tell them this, or did they already know?
Glad to hear they're fixing it up for you and letting you keep the original cylinder.
On the phone with CS, I mentioned that this gun is the subject of threads on at least a dozen forums. They definitely knew all about it. I could tell from the response I got.
Posted on S&W’s Facebook page:
Thank you giving us the chance to make this right for you.
My response:
Despite some of the comments I read on firearms forums, I never had any doubts about the quality of your guns or your service. All my wheelguns are by S&W and I expect that won't change. Thanks!!
Posted on S&W’s Facebook page:
Thank you giving us the chance to make this right for you.
My response:
Despite some of the comments I read on firearms forums, I never had any doubts about the quality of your guns or your service. All my wheelguns are by S&W and I expect that won't change. Thanks!!
Every time I look at your photo of that cylinder I can not hardly believe what has happened to this great old company. I just hope that they don't transfer Brian to the heat treat shop. It's also incredible to me how many people on the various forums seem to be of the opinion that this is really no big deal and that mistakes like this simply "happen" and we should all just accept products like this. Someone else was discussing a case where new cars were being shipped to dealers with the brake pads missing. Where do companies find these people who are in charge of critical stuff?
From my many years experience in QC, I’d say this was an example of people getting too familiar with their procedures and forgetting about checking for things they’ve never seen.
You can be sure S&W has detailed, written procedures for their QC. You can also bet those procedures are not open on the benches of their inspectors. Once an inspector gets proficient in his job, he really doesn’t have to physically go down a checklist and mark each step as done. That is, as long as he actually does know his procedures and doesn’t skip anything.
It’s easy to assume the guys who did the machining and assembly did their jobs right. That’s almost always the case. The problem is, you can’t assume anything when you’re doing the final QC. You have to look at everything and forget nothing.
For whatever reason, that didn’t happen on 12/02/2011 at Brian’s workstation.
You can be sure S&W has detailed, written procedures for their QC. You can also bet those procedures are not open on the benches of their inspectors. Once an inspector gets proficient in his job, he really doesn’t have to physically go down a checklist and mark each step as done. That is, as long as he actually does know his procedures and doesn’t skip anything.
It’s easy to assume the guys who did the machining and assembly did their jobs right. That’s almost always the case. The problem is, you can’t assume anything when you’re doing the final QC. You have to look at everything and forget nothing.
For whatever reason, that didn’t happen on 12/02/2011 at Brian’s workstation.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Apparently so. In fact, it seems to be preferred around here.
Closed until further report comes back from Japle.
Can't wait to see his fine new 686!
UPDATE: 1/25/12
I got a call from Jon Young at S&W Customer Service. He says getting an unfluted cylinder installed won’t be a problem, BUT:
1. When he told me on 1/3 that I could keep the screwed-up cylinder, that wasn’t true. They want it back. He’s sending me a return shipping label.
2. When he told me on 1/3 that nobody would change anything inside the gun, that all I had to do was specify in my letter that I wanted the action job left alone, that this was routine and wouldn’t be any problem, that wasn’t true. They’re going to replace the Bang, Inc springs and the C&S extended firing pin. The parts will be returned to me and I’ll have to install them again.
Jon claimed he thought what he told me was true, but when I questioned him, he admitted he didn’t know and was just guessing. He actually had no damn idea if what he was telling me was the truth. I strongly suspect he was just making it all up as he went along, telling me what he thought I wanted to hear. To say I’m displease at having smoke blown up my rear end on two separate issues by a guy who’s representing S&W is a titanic understatement.
He’s walking the gun back to the repair section. He says they expect to ship my gun tomorrow.
Right now I’m seriously POed. Up until now, this was a case of carelessness and failure of Quality Control in the manufacturing process. Now I’ve been lied to. Flat-out lied to.
I am not happy.
I got a call from Jon Young at S&W Customer Service. He says getting an unfluted cylinder installed won’t be a problem, BUT:
1. When he told me on 1/3 that I could keep the screwed-up cylinder, that wasn’t true. They want it back. He’s sending me a return shipping label.
2. When he told me on 1/3 that nobody would change anything inside the gun, that all I had to do was specify in my letter that I wanted the action job left alone, that this was routine and wouldn’t be any problem, that wasn’t true. They’re going to replace the Bang, Inc springs and the C&S extended firing pin. The parts will be returned to me and I’ll have to install them again.
Jon claimed he thought what he told me was true, but when I questioned him, he admitted he didn’t know and was just guessing. He actually had no damn idea if what he was telling me was the truth. I strongly suspect he was just making it all up as he went along, telling me what he thought I wanted to hear. To say I’m displease at having smoke blown up my rear end on two separate issues by a guy who’s representing S&W is a titanic understatement.
He’s walking the gun back to the repair section. He says they expect to ship my gun tomorrow.
Right now I’m seriously POed. Up until now, this was a case of carelessness and failure of Quality Control in the manufacturing process. Now I’ve been lied to. Flat-out lied to.
I am not happy.
ugaarguy
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- Mar 19, 2006
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- 13,828
If they're shipping the gun back anyway, can they legally force you to return the screwed up cylinder? I also believe I'd call S&W customer service, and have a nice chat with Jon Young's supervisor. I hate to hear of the difficulties you're having.
ultramag44
Member
John,
I openly admit I'm just guessing and don't really know, but it may be a case of the 'suits' & company lawyers heard about this. After loading up their BVD's, they told poor Jon:
" You told him what!!?? You do your best to get that flakey cylinder back here! Tell him he gets the gun back in 'factory-standard' condition."
Then they wrote a script for all CS Reps should this or anything like it ever happen again.
BTW, I love my S&W guns, and will buy more.
I openly admit I'm just guessing and don't really know, but it may be a case of the 'suits' & company lawyers heard about this. After loading up their BVD's, they told poor Jon:
" You told him what!!?? You do your best to get that flakey cylinder back here! Tell him he gets the gun back in 'factory-standard' condition."
Then they wrote a script for all CS Reps should this or anything like it ever happen again.
BTW, I love my S&W guns, and will buy more.
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They probably figured they should get it back after it got out you were blabbing all over the internet
I am a bit astounded that people who obviously haven't worked in manufacturing are surprised and condemning S&W for this. We work for perfection, but it sometimes is a little amazing that no matter what you do, mistakes you never thought could happen do.
I am a bit astounded that people who obviously haven't worked in manufacturing are surprised and condemning S&W for this. We work for perfection, but it sometimes is a little amazing that no matter what you do, mistakes you never thought could happen do.
Mr.Revolverguy
Member
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2007
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- 1,882
I don't agree it is right to condemn Jon I am not sure he actually flat out lied as it was quoted. He probably thought everything he was telling you was true and had all good intentions. A better answer would have been Mr. I have never seen anything like this and until I clear it with my supervisor I am not sure what to expect at this point.
How many of you have said something you thought were in alignment with your companies policies only to find out your boss does not agree with your decision.
How many of you have said something you thought were in alignment with your companies policies only to find out your boss does not agree with your decision.
bbuddtec
Member
not as many as flat out lied just to hang the phone upp sooner...
ps...
you kill me., FUFF!
ps...
you kill me., FUFF!
Guillermo
member
I concur,
It is a very sad situation.
Man O man!!! That would piss me off to no end.
Is there anything else you can do?? I would be VERY VERY upset.
I understand that crap happens, In QA the only thing any reasonable person can ask is that A) there is a fix (CAPA) and B) people are straight with you.
I'd tell S&W to suck a fat one... They shouldn't inconvenience you more than they already have.
Is there anything else you can do?? I would be VERY VERY upset.
I understand that crap happens, In QA the only thing any reasonable person can ask is that A) there is a fix (CAPA) and B) people are straight with you.
I'd tell S&W to suck a fat one... They shouldn't inconvenience you more than they already have.
I wouldn't be upset if they'd told me right at the beginning that they wanted the cylinder back and they wouldn't send the gun back with aftermarket parts in it.
But they didn't do that. Their CS guy told me it was OK if I kept the cylinder. He said they'd leave the parts alone. That was a lie.
In the CS business, if a customer asks you a question and you don't know the answer for sure, the proper response is, "I don't know, but I'll find out and call you back". That's not what happened. Instead, he "shined me on". That unacceptable.
But they didn't do that. Their CS guy told me it was OK if I kept the cylinder. He said they'd leave the parts alone. That was a lie.
In the CS business, if a customer asks you a question and you don't know the answer for sure, the proper response is, "I don't know, but I'll find out and call you back". That's not what happened. Instead, he "shined me on". That unacceptable.
ultramag44
Member
I suppose the question now is: Will they ship your gun back to you before they get the cylinder in return?
If they require the cylinder first, then you're kind of stuck. If you get the gun back first, then it's up to you, keep or return the cylinder as your conscience dictates.
If they require the cylinder first, then you're kind of stuck. If you get the gun back first, then it's up to you, keep or return the cylinder as your conscience dictates.
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