My Pastor just blanched at the sight of a toy MP5

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Stuck up here (rural Missouri) and got Dixie on my
I was at my church last Friday evening for a Bible study. A couple of the kids brought toy guns, two dart guns and a toy MP5. My pastor saw the MP5and was appalled. He was not bothered by the dart guns but the MP5 really disturbed me. He asked what I thought. My response was that it was just an inanimant object.

Why can't people see the truth. I guess I have some educating to do
 
You are that close to Dixie and the preacher has a problem with toy guns? Sounds like he might be on reassignment from somewhere a little less enlightened like say
oh San Francisco.
 
From a pastor...

Well...how would you feel if your pastor showed up to Bible class with a pentagram hanging around his neck...or a swastica monogrammed onto his Bible cover...or some other symbol...

You challenge him and he says, "It's just a symbol...give me a break..."

The issue isn't that it is inatimate; it's what it *could* be; what it is a symbol of in some people's minds. Those symbols raise certain emotions - and fears - and in some, cause really strong reactions, right or wrong.

I am a pastor. If someone showed up to church with a gun - yes, even a toy - I would make sure I was double-checking it. The safety & welfare of the members in the building is, practically speaking (if not technically speaking) part of my job.

After last week's events, I do not blame him a bit. In fact, I have the evening news on as I type. I live in the Houston area, and the CBS station just reported a kid carrying an unloaded pistol to school today, a copycat shooting that mirrored the NASA shooting last week, and still are talking about the VT scene. Yeah, guns are in the forefront of people's mind right now.

Even though I am planning a new gun purchase for myself, I'm not broadcasting it at church. In fact, I've considered getting a CCL for myself, or keep a pistol in a safe place in my desk. I passed the idea by a guy at church who has a CCL and he told me he would if he were me.

My point: I'm a gun guy, but I am also cautious & conservative when it comes to others. It's the old principal of "trust but verify." Or, like we say when we drive on the highways: it's not me I worry about...it's the other idiot. There's only one of me, but lots of others... Don't be too hard on the guy. His heart is probably in the right place and his head is trying to keep ahead of what could happen.

Biblically, he's probably practicing the dual principals of "Love does no harm" and "Do not cause the weaker brother to stumble."

Finally, and again as a gun guy, I see *absolutely no reason* for a toy gun - especially one that appears to be this realistic - to be at church or Sunday school. If I were in this guy's shoes, I would have gone further, found the parent, and gotten it OUT now. Inatimate object: yes. A distraction: definitely. Disturbing for some: probably. So, it goes. Just like if a kid were playing with a yo-yo or a deck of cards. Outtahere.

There it is...the target is posted...fire away...

Preacher Man
 
On second thought, the thought that his religion was originally (pre-Constantine) against world government might disturb him even more
Click to expand...

Most Christians that I know (and I'm a Christian from rural MO, as well) are also opposed to world govt. Ya know, the anti-Christ and all that. Why do you say the early church was opposed to world government?
Remind him of the command from Yoshua ben-Yosef to "sell your cloak and buy an MP5".
Click to expand...
I think Jesus has better taste in weaponry, myself. :)
 
First off, I am an avid heavy metal fan, so I think it would be awesome if my pastor came to church wearing a pentagram. Moving on, thats the most milquetoast thing I have ever heard. Being sensitive to others doesn't extend so far as to try and please everybody based solely off of what you might think is offensive. You know what offends me? Women who wear too much cologne. It stinks and makes me nauseous. Are you gonna throw them out of church for that, or make them wash NOW? My opinion is that pastors need to be a rock upon which to lean on. Protect your flock, don't coddle them.

Secondly, your comparison between a toy gun and the swastika is not a valid one. The Swastika directly represents the murder of about 6 million people, and there is no arguing that fact. A toy MP-5 could just as easily represent a SWAT team member as it could a bad guy. Additionally, it is a toy. I have a toy lightsaber, and that doesn't seem to make anyone think I am a Jedi.
 
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Ya know... The youth group at my church is gonna go have a 24-hour paintball war in june. but its not IN the church.

buuuut... if the toy MP5 doesnt fire any projectiles nor was he pointing it at people, I see no problem.
 
one of the local big churches has child care, so kids with toys are a common sight.
I wouldn't go to a church that frowned on kids having toys.
I see barely concealed ccw's there all the time too.
 
I am going to try to take a serious stab at this question. There have been a lot of good considerations brought up on this thread.

1. I would tell the pastor, regarding his concern, "Hey, it's just cowboys and indians in a new generation. You and I had our six-shooter cap guns."


2. Regarding symbols: Like word, symbols mean things. Sadly, symbols are often co-opted by various groups and their meanings are twisted and altered to represent that group. Hitler didn't create the swastika-- he co-opted an Indian symbol (IIRC) with positive meaning and now it is a symbol of his twisted vison. The pentagram has been used in many religions-- including early Judiasm. I am no expert, but it is a current symbol of meaning in Wicca. Just yesterday, it was announced that Wiccan veterans will be allowed to mark their graves with the pentagram.

Too often symbols are used by those that are not convicted to that belief or ideology in order to gardner some type of shock value. Too often, they get the reaction they are hoping for from us.


3. I can see why-- at times-- it isn't inappropriate for a child to bring toys to church. In our church, we have a community center, an activity center, etc. Throughout the week, we have activities going on. The church, in many rural areas, is more than simply a center for worship. It is the center of community.

Often, the kids are out in the gym under supervison of our youth coordinator while non-service activities are going on such as choir practice. There is always an effort to have religious-based discussion, but in reality kids get a lot of it. They have shorter attention spans, and often they are there with all of thier friends. They naturally want to play. Our solution is to have a short "lesson" at the beginning, and a short activity at the end. In the middle, the kids are allowed to play and socialize.

I really don't see anything wrong with this. I often find myself thinking back to when I was a kid there -- doing the same things. Now, a lot of those kids I played with have kids of their own. Now, those kids are sitting on mundane committees with me and others working together on mundane matters. The friendships and socialization we developed at those young ages have allowed us to work with each other in a spirit of friendship and respect.

Often the intrinsic rewards of "play" do not manifest themselves until much later.


That is all I can think of at the moment.


All the best!


John
 
I am a serious "gun guy" and I think it was a bad idea to bring a toy gun to church these days. Somethings are just common sense to me. No, I don't want to worry about every little scardy cats feelings, but being reasonable about hurting folks feelings and not doing things that can make many uncomfortable just makes sense. The MP5 is associated with killing, wether it's good guys killing bad guys or vice versa. We are comfortable with a real one laying around, but the average citizen definitely is not. :)
 
Hey Preacher Man,

Where are you located? I am in the same boat, but Texas law seems to say I can't ccw in a church. Just wondered where the line is drawn...
 
Texas law seems to say I can't ccw in a church.
Click to expand...

Either your CHL class teacher sucked, or you didn't pay much attention in class. CCW in churches is legal in Texas as long as they don't post a 30.06 sign.
 
I lived in Texas long enough to almost get a CCW, and then I moved. I did take the classes, though. I think I was taught that. That was in 1999 or 2000. Did the law change since then, or do we have bad memories?
 
My rabbi not only wouldn't blanche at the site of a gun (much less a toy), he carries one himself. As do many of the members of our congregation (including one ex-member of the Israeli special forces, who's so big and beefy that I wouldn't want to have a fight with him if he was unarmed and I had a 12-gauge). On any given Saturday, we have at least 1/2 dozen of us carrying, and at least a dozen for the High Holidays. Last week, all of those who carry and regularly shoot together exchanged a lot of knowing glances.

BTW, the rabbi is one of the guys that go shooting with me on a semi-regular basis, and I actually did go shooting the day before the VT massacre with one of the assistant rabbis.

As y'all might suspect, we subscribe to the philosophy of "Never Again - but if again, not for free!"

Edit: Oh, and to confirm the prior answers to Reverendxlt and Eleven Mike, "YES" you can carry into a house of worship in Texas, just so long as there's no 30.06 sign posted (or one is posted with bad language). The law changed on that around 2000, when there was a shooting at a church (I don't remember where, or even if it was in Texas).
 
I agree that church is no place for a toy gun. Right or wrong gun be they toys or real do make some people nervous. As for pointing it at people, it was a kid! Of course he was pointing it.

CCW is another matter as it is concealed and no ones business but your own.
Pastor I also say get the permit.

I do disagree with the guy making fuss over the toy MP5 but not over dart guns, all the same to me.

Toy guns out in the trees or woods after service while the kids are playing is fine, just not at a bible study.

My opinion only.
 
Well guys I see no reason why you should not carry a 1611 KJV and a 1911 to church. One to protect the soul the other to protect the body.

Turn the other cheek is not in context w/ defense of ones person or family.
 
Im283,
I agree. There is nothing to gain by making folks uncomfortable over toys for the children. CCW means concealed, and is a different matter.

Best,
Jerry
 
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