My sister finally asked for advice...

[Snowdog]

Feeling stalked by an ex boyfriend, my sister asked me what kind of handgun she should buy for the house and possibly the car when out and about. Living 300 miles away, I can't simply lend her a handgun and supply the training readily.
She won't consider a shotgun, which was my first idea for the house. She's insisting on a handgun, and on that I've narrowed the field down to a revolver of some kind (due to her absolute lack of firearms knowledge/interest and possible inability to easily operate an automatic's slide).

Ideally, I'd like to see her with a .38special and find myself about to bid on this used (cond. NRA-VG) hard-chrome beauty selling for less than $300

S&W M13-3




My sister is about 5'7-5'8 and athletic (runs marathons), yet weighs hardly anything. I don't know what kind of recoil she'll find comfortable.

In addition to asking about this particular model revolver, I'm also curious about revolvers in .22WMR and .32H&R magnum for their modest recoil.

During my search for the M13, I looked into some of the 8 shot .22WMR revolvers Taurus offers. I'm under the impression that a more mild recoil may equate to more range time for someone like my sister. What's the consensus on the .22WMR from a 2"-4" barrel for defense?

Finally, what's the consensus of using a .32magnum from a similiar length barrel? And where the heck can I find one (my search on the auction sites only turned up Ruger's Single Six).

A recap:
1) What do we think of the M13 for defense? Any inherent design problems with this particular model? This is the most likely option so far.

2) Is an eight to nine shot .22WMR revolver viable for defense?

3) Is a .32magnum viable for defense, and if so, what models can you recommend?

Thanks in advance!

 

[GunNut]

IMHO, I would go for something in .357mag with a 4-6" barrel.

She can start with .38 special loads and in no time should be able to handle full power loads.

I like S&W 686's, Ruger GP-100's or ?????

Good luck and help her stay safe.

Steve

 

[P95Carry]

Snowdog .... I am far from a resident S&W expert .. others know far more but .. this K frame would i think prove very suitable and those grips IMO will make it very comfortable. Prob load tho well below max for sis' .... and maybe use one of the popular SD loads in +P.

Only by tuppence!

 

[Snowdog]

That was my thought as well. The model 13 is a .357mag, so I was hoping to do just that. Plus, this particular one is shiny and pretty, so she'll likely take more interest in it. Stereotypical maybe, but I'm just trying to be realistic.

 

[Ala Dan]

Snowdog, while I'm not an expert on S&W's
either; I can highly recommend the 3" model 13 or 65
in .357 magnum. Would it be a viable defensive firearm
for a 5'7 - 5'8 female? My answer would certainly be a
big YES! The model 13's and/or 65's that I've had
dealings with, all ran like a fine Swiss watch.

Based on S&W's K-frame, this six-shot revolver
would be capeable of most all chores associated
with a handgun; ie: especially a revolver. And
for under three C-notes, my friend thats what you
call a "bargain" here on my island.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[Majic]

Or just suggest a .38sp instead of the .357mag. I know of people who have magnums, but in reality can't hit the side of the barn with magnum loads. Most do fairly well with .38sp in them, but everyone of them have listened to the story of practicing with specials and carry magnums. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who do just that. It takes some time and dedication to work up to controlling magnums and she feels the need to be able to use it now. Not after many, many hours of practice with first .38sp then the .357mag.
I know alot of people praise the versatility of the magnum revolver, but if magnum loads are never used in it then where is the versatility? A revolver chambered in .38sp does an admirable job.

 

[Jim March]

First, that 13 is a fine choice. With a 3" barrel, it'll get plenty of performance out of the better 38+P loads so if she never gets past that point, she's still in very good shape.

The problem with the 8-shot 22Maggies is twofold: raw horsepower is low (enough to penetrate skull but that's the best I can say) and there are NO SPEEDLOADERS available. Which is idiocy - Taurus oughta damnsure make SURE they're available.

32Mag: well, you can get six rounds in a J-sized package. The SP101 can be found in six-shot 32Mag, as can some Taurus and S&W "J-class" guns. Ammo availability is...tricky. Sigh. Almost to the "you gotta be a reloader" level. Cor-Bon had a project going to use a 60grain Gold Dot meant for 32ACP use and drive it at some crazy velocity, 1,400fps from a 4" barrel . But it was cancelled due to lack of demand .

My vote: assuming her hands are big enough, and with that open-backstrap grip they probably are, that 13 is a superb choice.

 

[10-Ring]

Good choice. The 13 is a very simple & dependable revolver. W/ the right practice & instruction, it should serve your sister well.

 

[Jim Watson]

We had a "strange gun" stage at an IDPA match Tuesday. Shoot your own gun empty and pick up the strange gun instead of reloading. The strange gun was a M-13 loaded factory Magnums. Substantial recoil and bright flash from cylinder gap and muzzle. Range was short, pretty much in line with real defensive use.

So the MD had his 12 year old daughter early in the squad. After she ripped off her string with no problem, nobody could complain.

I think your sister can handle it, with proper instruction, practice, and escalation in power from .38 Standard to +P, to +P+, to Magnums, if you both agree they are desirable.

 

[Wedge]

Make sure she gets her CCW as well!

 

[Logistar]

Hard to say without knowing how she feels about recoil, etc.

My vote would probably be either .38 special (+P rated) or a .357 mag.

If she is SURE she will never use the .357 mags, I think the .38 specials are easier to clean.

My S.O. carries (CCW) a Taurus 650 - snub nose. She uses 38 spec. +P 98% of the time. When she hikes in Black Bear country, she loads it with magnum loads. (Hey, it might help a LITTLE! )

The recoil from a .357 that light is pretty rough but she can handle it (although she prefers not to). Follow up shots in a gun like that are kinda slow from a magnum round but if a bear actually charges her, she will probably be lucky to get off a single shot anyway.

If she doesn't plan to conceal(and maybe even if she does), a larger, heavier, and longer barreled gun would of course be better. I'd still say .38 spec or .357 though.

Logistar

 

[Highland Ranger]

357 revolver in stainless; smith 686 or ruger gp100 series

 

[Jim March]

A possible problem with the L-Frames (686, etc) or the GP100 is trigger reach. Remember, this lady is slender but athletic...odds are her hands aren't exactly huge mits.

She's less likely to have trigger reach issues with a K-Frame like that 13, or a J-class gun. There's a good chance the 13 will be on the outer edge of what she can deal with, although with open-backstrap grips I'd be pretty confident she CAN cope with that. (BUT: open backstrap means recoil control isn't exactly optimal - she may be stuck at 38+P levels for a while anyways, which isn't a disaster.)

The gun has to fit her hands. Where possible, a "best case scenario" is where she can shoot comfortably with the barrel of the gun lined up perfectly with her forearm bones as you "look down" on her hand/gun alignment. When that alignment is possible, recoil control is much easier when shooting one-handed and it facilitates various "Weaver variant" holds. When it's not possible, Iscoceles holds come into play...the police have gone Iso in large part because a lot of their cops have hands that are really too small for the standard department issue guns; Iso holds help adapt around hand size issues but at a price: one-handed and off-hand shooting suffers some.

 

[Ala Dan]

Excellent post thus far! Like a lot of my friends have said,
the S&W model 13 stoked with something like Federal's
110 grain JHP's would make for a real good choice for
one's personal defense. I carry this load in my old, and
original S&W "Chief's Special" model 60.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[Standing Wolf]

My sister is about 5'7-5'8 and athletic (runs marathons), yet weighs hardly anything. I don't know what kind of recoil she'll find comfortable.

If her life's at stake, recoil will prove manageable. I'd recommend a .357 magnum with both .38 special and .357 magnum loads.

 

[Snowdog]

Thanks for the posts so far. I believe I will seriously consider the model 13.

As for ammunition, I would prefer the practice and defense load be the same. I don't see her practicing with a magnum (in fact, I would be surprised if it goes much further than a mild 148gr WC). I think a standard .38special will fit the bill, a light 110gr +P at the most.

 

[Jim March]

Actually, you'll find the classic ol' 38Spl+P 158 LSWC-HP by Winchester or Remington to be a very controllable round. From that 3" tube, assuming the barrel/cylinder gap isn't crazy (.003" is probably optimum for a 357, you can make a case for .002" and out to .005"/.006" will be OK) the 158s should get close to 900fps. Maybe 850-875 range but they'll expand at that speed (anything over 825ish) and penetrate...heh, "well enough".

They're also among the cheapest available real combat loads, so if you follow the "practice with what you'll carry" theory, these kick butt.

Hey, Georgia Arms is making 'em, and in bulk too:

http://www.georgia-arms.com/pistol.htm#ab

$125 for 1,000 of 'em or $13.50 for 100.

They rate 'em at 900fps from a 4", that's the same as Winchester. Cool.

You'll find that a lot of the fixed-sight S&Ws are regulated for 158s.

 

[armoredman]

When I worked at a range/shop, our/my reccomendadtion was a good 3" .357, loaded with 38 Spl, hi quality ammo. The extra weight helpos with recoil, the extra inch of barrel helps with recoil and accuracy without being impossible to conceal, and the weapon itself is very user friendly. A SW 13 would be good. Good ammo, Golden Saber, HydraShok, anything but 158 gr LRN!
Tell her to spend an extra couple of bucks, and get a comfortable holster - she'll wear it more often than with a cheapie.
Talk her into a speedloader, or just a Bianchi Speed Strip? Anything to get her to carry a few extra rounds. The ammo wallet came out years ago - still made?

 

[fourdeuce82d]

First off, let me offer my condolences/sympathy- sounds like a real crappy situation.

Second, let's forget about weaponryfor a second, and think about tactics/"strategery". The main thing is to make sure your sister survives.


Guns are great...but the best way to survive a gunfight is not to be there when it happens. I don't know about your sister's situation, but is there anyway she can get a restraining order? Does she have friends she can stay with (as she's becoming proficient w/the handgun) Does she have LEO friends? If this guy is a nut-case, he may have warrants out etc.. Also. scumbags like this have a tendency to resist arrest. A lot. They then require subduing. A LOT.

Is there a dog in the house? an alarm? Pepper spray cannister (mini-fire exstinguisher kind, not the key chain perfume dispenser)?.

Doe she have, or can she get installed, a solid core exterior type door to her bedroom with a heavy duty lock? How zbout a four foot length of 1" dowel with a KBar affixed to the end setting by her bed?


I am in no way discouraging her or you from getting a handgun. I AM suggesting that it is one tool among many- The brain is the most potent weapon- use it first.

For example, a restraining order won't necessarily stop the little Shiite-Stain...but it sure would be nice to have on file as they're scraping the creeps brains off the wallpaper.

Get her a gun, hell get her a bunch- but in IMHO...there are a lot of other issues/concerns/responses besides just geting a piece.



Goe bless you and her, and I'll keep you in my prayers.

 

[James Bondrock]

A possible problem with the L-Frames (686, etc) or the GP100 is trigger reach. Remember, this lady is slender but athletic...odds are her hands aren't exactly huge mits.

K- and L-Smiths have the same size grip frame and trigger reach. There have been square and round butts in the past; all produced since about 1995 are round, which would be better. (Even I, a man on the short side of medium size, like the round butts better than the square.) The GP100 is available in a three-inch barrel with a smaller grip, and this could also be put on the four-inch (the standard grip of which admittedly does have a long reach) if desired. Remember that the GP100's grip frame is merely a stud, so any size or configuration of grip you please can be used on it.

 

[BluesBear]

A hard chromed model 13 3"?

It's about as close to a perfect serious gun for a beginner as you can get.

Start with 148gr wadcutters to learn the mechanics and go from there.

Perhaps consider some Crimson Trace Laser Grips?


In what state does your sister reside?

 

[RWK]

Snowdog,

I sympathize with you and your sister – it is a lousy situation – and wish both of you peace this holiday season.

There have been many excellent suggestions made already. I, too, would recommend a top-quality, 3 or 4 inch barrel, Smith K or L frame or a Ruger GP100 revolver, loaded with either 158-grain +P LSWCHPs or Federal +P Nyclads. I would suggest considerable practice, including weak-hand and reloading drills, until she feels fully comfortable with the “weapons system†(revolver, ammunition, holster, speed loaders). And I would certainly advocate an alarm system and/or dog for “first line†home defense.

I would NOT recommend any caliber less than .38 Special (+P) nor would I suggest an autoloader, at least not initially.

On the “legal frontâ€, I would suggest she obtain both a concealed carry permit and a restraining order. While I am neither an attorney nor an expert – and I certainly do not believe the police will do much proactively – I suspect your sister will be on much more solid legal grounds, should she be compelled to defend herself, with one.

Best regards -- Roy

 

[Tamara]

1) What do we think of the M13 for defense?

We think a fixed-sight 3" round-butt K-frame may be closely tied with the 1911 for "Best Serious Carry Gun Of All Time", that's what we think.

 

[Waitone]

Spend a day at the range with her which has a rental board. Let her decide what she like and feels comfortable with.

Then when you know what she feels comfortable with you can help fine tunr the decision.

Bonus includes safety training and trigger time.