Mystery bayonet?!!

[Bomber]

G'day there everyone, I'm a newbie from Down Under & just stumbled across this forum in a random web search. Maybe someone here can assist me in fulfilling my quest? Please excuse me if my bladed weapon terminology is a bit iffy, I'll try my best.
Please find attached a pic of a bayonet that has recently come into my posession. I've never seen one quite like it & would love to know where/when/what conflict etc.
It's 685mm (2' 3"), tip to pommel-well, it doesn't have a pommel as such...
The grip & hand guard is one peice, solid brass. The blade seems bent to the off side from the hilt(?-where it joins the handle) which I assume is damage & not design & has some pitting of varying degrees & had some flaking rust too but it's not in too bad of condition.
No blood gutter.
It appears to be a side-of-barrel mounted weapon with a raised slide flange(?) with a pin hole & latch rebate on the upper edge.
Markings wise; on the inside of the grip, above the cross guard, is stamped descending, the number 96, a crown & "CH". On the spine of the grip, (situated approx below the position of the web of thumb & index finger), the crown is repeated, this time with just an "H" beneathe. I can find no other official markings but there appear to be "notches" on the flat of the "pommel" at the slide opening also repeated on the edge of the "hilt"(?-the bit above the cross guard seperating grip from blade). Obviously scratched into the brass-"V III". (I know what I think they mean.)
It has a full tang, visible at the pommel & is weighted quite well for cut & thrust as a hand to hand weapon.
I've seen a few Australian/British & European WWI & WWII bayonets before but not one quite like this.
The length, side slide barrel mount & solid brass handle are what threw me & make me wonder if it may be an officers issue?
I found it behind a wardrobe of an old house I just bought & moved into. My first home & hence I've named it the Sword of Destiny... I know it's not a sword...!
Any ideas or feed back would be brilliant chaps!
-Bomber.

 

[hso]

Welcome to THR! We have several members from Australia and the more the merrier.

Please post a couple of pictures of the 8cm on each side of the "guard". A closeup of the markings would be of great help as well.

Also a picture of the mounting point is needed.

I've never seen anything quite like it and it's piqued my interest (especially since I couldn't identify it after several minutes searching).

 

[messerist]

Been looking for about an hour in my references and online and I can not find anything on your Bayonet yet.... Markings would help. I did find out that right after Pearl Harbor there were lots of cottage industries set up in Australia to manufacture stop-gap weapons and other types of equipment. Bayonets may have been included. The blade looks like it still has forge marks on it. It is hard to tell.

 

[Bomber]

More info on th mystery bayonet.

Thanks for the interest guys.
I'll endeavour to get some better pics up asap.
-Bomber.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Looks more like a dismountable spontoon rather than a bayonet.

Kinda like this Paul Chen model, but with a release catch.

 

[theotherwaldo]

-In other words, it's probably a lot older than you think.

 

[Bomber]

Mystery bayonet, further close up pics.

Hiya guys, the mystery continues to deepen with each further comment & interest. I have no idea how old it is, I just assumed WWII?
Here are some more pics in close up of the grip & marks etc.
I've photographed th entire grip, the mechanism(?) & the stamps etc.
Lets see what you can come up with?!!
Cheers!
-Bomber.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

It certainly LOOKS more 19th century than WWII vintage.

 

[Slamfire]

I believe that is a Belgian acceptance mark of Crown over CH. This guy has a Belgian bayonet with a CH mark. http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/sword_bayonets_f.htm

 

[Todd A]

Post your question here.

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23

Just resize and host your photos on a freebie site (like photobucket) and insert them in your post.

I have been out of bayonet collecting for a couple years,but the heavy hitters in this field hang out there. Including Carl (oldsmithy) the guy who made the site linked in the above post.

Good luck.

 

[hso]

http://www.oldswords.com/

These guys should be able to identify it.

British, Belgian, German and Spanish crown proofs were similar and of the "poofy" crown type. French crown proofs were the "spiky" crown.

The 90 or 96 leads me to think it dates from before 1900 and may be anywhere from 1890 or 1790.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[Bomber]

Onward & upward...

Thanks for the interest to everyone who contributed to my quest to identify this mysterious weapon... I shall try some of the links/sites that you have recommended.
If I get a result, I'll post back here to let you know.
Thanks heaps for you assistance & interest.
Belgian...?!! 19thC...?!! Just gets more curious by the day & I begin to wonder more & more how it came to be lying rusted, tarnished & forgotten behind a wardrobe in suburban Melbourne? With only the dehydrated carcass of a a large rodent for company since... who knows when?
If I attempt to pursue a line of inquiry with the previous owner of th house I may have a crisis of conscience if they want it back... if it belonged to great uncle Horatio from his time in the Belgian Royal Fusiliers... what would you do?

-Bomber.

 

[hso]

If it was on property you own or you were engaged in demolition then it may be yours under the law.

As an 17th or 18th century piece it has an interesting past to share.

It may be modified from it's original configuration. Any evidence it once had a knuckle bow/"D" guard? Look at the Baker Sword Bayonet here - http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/british_bayonets_by_year.htm#Baker Sword Bayonet

Send the pictures to Michael Long and see what they have to say.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Looks like something modified to fit similar to a brunswick bayonete. Seems like it is matching more the early 1800's English types.

Definately interesting.....

 

[Bomber]

Further to the mystery bayonet.

HSO-I was assuming that as I bought the house under the contractual condition that upon settlement whatever was still on the property was part of my purchase, therefore legally the bayonet is mine... I was just wondering what anyones thoughts were about the correct moral position might be, given it's possible family history etc? Is there an unwritten rule/code about the propriety of military service weapons regarding the families of servicemen or anything like that?

I can't see any obvious signs of modification, but then I'm only a lay enthusiast of old pointy things of military origin & neither a particularly well informed/reseached collector/expert nor possessing enough old school metalurgical/smithy knowledge to judge that for myself. I can stick stuff together pretty well with an arc or Mig welder but forging, cast & the noble metals are way beyond my skills or experince.
I've emailed pics to Oldsmithy & an enquiry to Michael Long so far & await responses.

 

[7X57chilmau]

I would have no compunction in keeping it. The previous owners abandonned it behind a wardrobe with a rat carcass for umpteen years, and then left it there when they sold the property.

Clearly they didn't care deeply enough to keep the piece with the respect it deserves, and it didn't weigh heavily enough on their hearts that they would take it with them.

It's found a better owner now. Own it well.

J

 

[Bomber]

My sentiments exactly.

7X57chilmau-thanks for the support, your's are also my sentiments exactly. I just want to respect/honour the history of the weapon & the hardship blood/tears it's original owner may have endured in it's employment in service.

Still no joy in ID-ing it, but the guys from "oldswords", "oldsmithy" & "Longs" are lookin' into it now too.

Regarding methods of restoring the iron blade to something akin to whats left of it's original matal... is anyone familiar with the molassus & lectric soda in solutions recipe for de-corroding metal? If so, is this appropriate for this kind of item or does anyone have any other ideas that one can DIY without the need for a Biochem suit?
Cheers,
Bomber.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Here is my S.W.A.G. I don't think it was an heirloom as such. The blade is more akin to a foundling. It's condition is from years spent outside not behind a wardrobe. Possibly(and to me,likely) a previous owner of the house found it,kept it as a curio and promptly forgot about it.

 

[7X57chilmau]

Until you know what it is and its value, don't touch it. Removing rust and the signs of years can ruin the value of an antique blade, if that's what it turns out to be.

I've had some decent results with rust removal using vinegar soak. I'll either submerge the article in vinegar, or wrap it in vinegar soaked rags. Option #2 for multi-metal objects like this to avoid galvanic corrosion.

After a few hours, most of the rust will come off with gentle scrubbing. Where you go from there depends on your wishes.

Again, don't attempt to clean the blade yet. If it's ancient and rare, it could be worht a pretty penny as is.

Patience!

J

 

[hso]

Don't attempt to "restore" it. Right now the only goal would be preservation. Coat it well with oil and leave it be.

 

[Bomber]

Morning guys!
Jeff from MDL (Longs) antique weapons collectors/dealers believes it to be a, Prussian "M1810 hirschfanger" bayonet?!!
From that I'm assuming Prussian being pre WWI German Empire (my European history before the Great War is pretty sketchy) & that the M1810 refers to the date, 1810?
I'm gonna follow him up for a bit more info as he gave me a one line reply.
Knowing what it is most likely is has only added to the mystery of how it came to be behind the wardrobe in this 1950's Govt housing estate house in the Nthn suburbs of Melbourne, Australia.
jimmyraythomason-your foundling idea sounds likey to me, given the state of the blade, as you say.
Our nation, then colony had been founded by the Brits less than 50 years by 1810, it was still a fledgling penal colony in the throws of being explored & tamed, with separate Governors ruling each State independently. All law enforcement/security was carried out by British "Troopers", either being soldiers or military type police of the British Crown colonial represenatives.
The odds of this weapon having been in Australia from anywhere near/shortly after the time it was in service with Prussian forces, perhaps by a serving soldier of the British Crown, seems highly unlikely?
So I'm thinking maybe a Digger picked it up in Europe during the 1st or 2nd WW & brought it home as a souvenir?
Most likely it's just been a curiosity item, collected by a civilian family member of the previous owner of this house, maybe the ol' girl's hubby, & then has been tossed on the top of the wardrobe & forgotten about when he passed on, falling down the back at some time until I found it?
I'm now in the quandary of curiosity of it's history vs the concern that if I track down the previous owner (which wouldn't be difficult) to ask about it, that someone in their family might want it back?
Hmmm?
NB: Fear not, I've taken off as much rust as I could just using a copper wire brush & steel wool & I'll just oil it as suggested, for now.
Any further thoughts/comments now there is a reasonably informed ID?
Cheers,
Bomber.

 

[theotherwaldo]

-Another possibility is that it is a Danish Model 1848, which is a close copy of the Prussian M-1810. See below:

http://www.holmback.se/bayonets/pics/Denmark/m1869_1.jpg

 

[Slamfire]

So I'm thinking maybe a Digger picked it up in Europe during the 1st or 2nd WW & brought it home as a souvenir?

That's what I would believe.

I asked several antique arms dealers where their swords came from, most came back from Military Veterans. These guys brought them back in duffle bags. Something like a bayonet would fit in nicely.

I purchased this WWII Japanese sword from Harry Beckworth in Micanopy Florida. Harry said it came an local estate. Most of the swords he had over the years came from the house holds of WWII veterans.

Harry holding the sword



This M1850 ish Austrian Admirals Cutlass was a bring back from a WWII veteran.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

NB: Fear not, I've taken off as much rust as I could just using a copper wire brush & steel wool & I'll just oil it as suggested, for now.
Any further thoughts/comments now there is a reasonably informed ID?

This is a BAD idea.

 

[Bomber]

Confused?

DAVIDSDIVAD-I'm a bit confused about what is a bad idea? Removing the flaky rust scale with a copper wire brush & steel wool? The copper wire brush was pretty soft, it took me quite a few evenings in front of the TV. I left no scratches or "brush" marks.
I've worked with steel as a job (steel fabricator/assistant boiler maker/welder) quite a bit over the past 5 yrs & was pretty cautious.

Or do you mean, to simply oil the blade, or not to oil the blade?
Please explain?!!
-Bomber.