Mystery Rifle, Ithaca 49 clone, question

[moewadle]

I am very familiar with the Ithaca Model 49 single-shot .22 rifle that was marketed primarily as a beginner's rifle with an old-west look. It had a Martini type action. It was sold from 1961 to 1979. Stevens marketed their twin of the Ithaca 49 as the Stevens 89 that was sold from about 1976 to 1985. I have not actually seen this gun but Gun Digest listed it for several years The Gun Digest for 1971 lists a rifle that must be about identical to the two aforementioned rifles. It is listed as the CHALLENGER 2268 FRONTIERSMAN.

With that background here is my question: In the stock of a gun dealer I have seen a used .22 rifle that is almost identical to the Ithaca 49 although the frame is a tiny bit different and there is a saddle ring attached to the left side of the frame. The Ithaca has no saddle ring and I have never seen one of the Stevens models. The rifle in question has wood which was finished in the way guns made for the lower-cost market are finished. (The Ithaca 49 originally had walnut furniture and then later a blonde wood believed to be elm.) The gun also has no markings on it that I can see regarding the manufacturer, model name or number, serial number, etc. I would like someone to identify this gun for me. As an added clue I have seen someone writing an entry on THR stating he once had a gun of this type with Ted Williams name on it which would make it a Sears product. Also, another entry by someone on THR said he had one of these guns that he referred to as an Agawam Arms Model 68. Did he mean Agwam Arms? Was he referring to the 2268?

I have become interested in the Ithaca 49 as a study subject and this has led me to be interested in researching all of these little guns of almost identical type. Can someone please elaborate, or at least give me some fragments of information? Thanks so much for telling me anything you know. This information is not available in my Standard Catalog of Firearms, 2005 edition.

 

[Ramrunner]

ramrunner

I can't help you on that saddle ring, I have a "49" in 22mag and a Sears in 22LR. I had always assumed that Ithaca had made the rifle for Sears, but now I don't know. It might be a Stevens. The Sears does not have the fake tube mag. I will watch this thread to see what you find out. This is my first entry, but I've been reading the threads for several months, learned a lot of good stuff. Ramrunner

 

[normt]

Value of this gun

I too have a Ithaca 49 lsa that you have described in your posting . I bought this gun in 1962 and am interested in its present day value. It is in excellent condition.Any help anybody on this site can give me will be greatly appriciated. Thank you.

 

[moewadle]

Ithaca 49 value

Because I started this thread I feel obligated to tell what I have seen recently as far as asking prices here in Iowa. You have to remember I just got back into guns three months ago after a 20 year lapse and also, as you must know, prices of used guns, cars, everything vary from seller to seller. A few weeks ago I went to a gun show in Iowa and found a 49 with walnut wood in what I would call well-used condition but certainly servicable and not altogether unattractive with the asking price of $80. The toe of the stock had a 1 inch chunk which had been broken off but nicely re-cemented. I hastily bought it out of child-like excitement and should have at least haggled because I am guessing I could have gotten it a bit cheaper. The main thing is, I should have waited for a nicer one really because 10 minutes later in another building of the show I found a very, very nice one with blonde wood for $150. The dealer would not come down in price and I bought it with no regrets. I think $150 is a fair price for this gun but I did really want one. I do not know how to NRA grade it but there is little bluing or anodizing missing and the wood and bore are in great shape. It has to be at least 27 years old so this has to be factored in somehow. It seems to shoot well and, question here, the ejector pitches the spent casing about 6 feet back from me and the older one I bought doesn't pitch the hulls so far. Is this an indication of how much use the gun has had????

In addition I have been in a gun shop in Des Moines, it is in a pawn shop but this guy has loads of used guns. He has a used 49 in just average shape and that is where I saw the saddle-ring clone in very nice shape. About equal to my nice 49. He has $139 marked on each gun. He thinks the saddle-ring "mystery gun" is the Stevens 89 model because he said, "Ithaca and Stevens are the only companies who made them." If he knew it was not a Stevens I don't know if he would take less. (I don't think it is a Stevens because they would not market an unmarked gun IMHO.) I don't know how much he otherwise haggles.

So, other than going to various web sites that list used guns, that is what I know. I believe the gun price books list these 49s in excellent shape at about $150. I also talked with one dealer at a show who appears just be a private guy who has a few guns and sets up at shows. He said that those Ithaca 49s always sell.

 

[normt]

Moe.
Thanks for the info. Here in Massachusetts these guns are not very popular and rarely found. I have never seen one at a gun show in this area and I have been to quite a few.
The one I have I bought in upstate NY in 1962. Can't remember what I paid for it but think it was less than $30.00 Brand new! My gun has a walnut stock and barrel underlay and the bluing is in almost perfect shape with only one small rubbing blemish on the underlay barrel clamp.
It is in excellent condition and I intend to keep the gun and pass it on to my son when I pass on. Not too soon I hope. Again thanks for the info, appriciate it. Regards, Norm

 

[moewadle]

Red-faced I am

Okay, I am embarassed at my mistake on this supposedly unidentified gun that is extensively discussed above. Yesterday I went to Des Moines and looked at this gun again. I was hasty and naive when I first looked at it. Because when I looked at it yesterday I realized the manufacturer markings are not on the receiver area but on the top of the barrel in front of the rear sight so about the middle of the barrel. I am certainly showing my naivete and hastiness in looking over the firearm. Anyway, it is stated that the gun is a Savage Arms Revelation Model 103. So, it is a clone of the Stevens 89 made for one of the chain department stores. I haven't checked yet but I think perhaps the Revelation brand was a Gambles-Skogmo store brand.

While we are talking about the Ithaca 49 and clones I will add that I have confirmed from another THR member that at least some of the Ted Williams Sears brand clones were made WITHOUT the phony magazine. However, there is a Ted Williams model for sale right now on another web site and the photo of it, which does not show the whole firearm, makes it appear that it does have the phony magazine tube. So, the search continues for varieties of this type of rifle. Oh, I forgot to mention that I bought the Revelation.


And.......thanks to you, Normt, for your information. You probably did pay less than $30 for the 49 in 1962. They were initially advertised in late 1961 for the grand sum of $19.95 and I remember buying a pristine used one in 1982 for $45.

 

[JohnBT]

I glanced at the '67 Shooter's Bible last night and, lo and behold, they made 3 grades of the Model 49. The highest grade had xx- or xxx-quality wood similar to what they put on the nice shotguns. I didn't know that.

John

 

[JohnBT]

Model 49 - Walnut stock. .22 LR - $24.95, .22 WMR - $29.95

Model 49 Deluxe - Figured wood, extra coats of finish, gold plated hammer and trigger, swivels and sling. LR - $32.95, WMR - $39.95

Presentation Model 49 - Extra fancy figured wood compares to that used on the Ithaca Single Barrel Trap Guns. Gold shield in stock for personal engraving. Receiver hand engraved. Gold plated hammer and trigger.
LR - $125.00, WMR - $125.00

 

[moewadle]

And.....that is not all.....there was also a St. Louis commemorative model made one year and one source relates that only 220 were made. I would love to find one just to see it.

 

[JohnBT]

Now you've got me looking. The reference list at Cherry's site says 200 and so does the google-cached article at

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache..."model+49"+st.+louis&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

"Two hundred Model 49 Deluxe Saddleguns without slings were made and their frames marked, "1764 to 1964, St. Louis, Missouri" They were serial numbered within the 1 to 200 range. Ithaca also sold many M-49 Saddleguns to the Sears Roebuck Co. These guns have a "Ted Williams" mark and are numbered within the regular M-49 serial number range. They have two differing characteristics, a heavier barrel and no false magazine tube.
Examples of M-49 rifles will be found with a Williams or a Redfield peep sight installed. A 1963 ITHACA GUNOGRAM" mentioned, "Model 49 with Blond Maple Stock and Forend. A snappy looking model to liven up your gun rack." I would not be surprised to learn of other M-49 "specials." One thing is certain, the M-49 Saddlegun has an interesting variety of configurations for which to search."

Elm stocks, maple stocks, peep sights, who knows what else they turned out.

John

 

[stikman]

any similar ones made today?

I am looking for a rifle manufactured today that is similar to the one below.
The Ithaca Model 49 Saddlegun was a single shot .22 (short or long) lever action rifle made between 1961-1978. Martini-type action. Great .22 rifle for beginners.

 

[Jim K]

Revelation was a Western Auto store brand.

I have seen only one Savage 89, and it looked to be better made than the Ithaca 49, which (sorry) I have always considered a POS. I had to fix (or try to fix) a lot of them. After a few shots, the ejectors would miss the case rim so the case stayed in the chamber. The only solution was to make and fit a new ejector (the factory ones were of course the same as the original), a job that cost enough the customers always complained that the gun wasn't worth it. (They were right!)

The ejector sear was another nightmare. They broke all the time, as did firing pins. Another problem was that the breech block pin was a b**** to get out. All in all the guns (which I think were actually made in Germany) were a PITA. When Ithaca came out with the 49R repeater, the man who owned the shop where I worked refused to carry them, so I only saw a few of those but concluded they weren't any better made. They also had a later model called (I think) the Model 72, which was a different gun and better.

Maybe they are a collectors item today and that is OK by me, as hanging on the wall is the right place for them.

Jim