Mystery rifle
- Thread starter CZguy
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LaEscopeta
Member
Urban legend:
The Japanese military switched from 6.5 mm to 7.7mm rounds just before WWII, at great expense and difficulty. They chose a 7.7mm bore that was just larger than the British .303 and the American 30-06 rounds. They chambered the new Arisaka Type 99 rifles to fire their own 7.7mm ammo PLUS captured .303 and .30-06 rounds. The 7.7 mm rounds were too big to be fired through the barrels of SMLEs not M1s, no matter how the chambers of those rifles were re-worked.
It makes a good story but I have found no evidence supporting it, and I have never heard of any trying to fire Allied ammo in a Type 99 rifle.
Most history sources I’ve found say the Japanese Army noticed they were being out-shot by Mosin-Nagant 7.62mm model 1891 rifles in the Russo-Japanese War, way back in 1904-1905. They studied the .30 caliber ammo used by most sides in WWI and concluded they needed equivalent ammo. But in typical bureaucratic fashion they could not get the change approved until the eave of WWII.
I’ll think I submit this to Mythbusters and see if they will try to fire different types of ammo from an Arisaka Type 99.
The Japanese military switched from 6.5 mm to 7.7mm rounds just before WWII, at great expense and difficulty. They chose a 7.7mm bore that was just larger than the British .303 and the American 30-06 rounds. They chambered the new Arisaka Type 99 rifles to fire their own 7.7mm ammo PLUS captured .303 and .30-06 rounds. The 7.7 mm rounds were too big to be fired through the barrels of SMLEs not M1s, no matter how the chambers of those rifles were re-worked.
It makes a good story but I have found no evidence supporting it, and I have never heard of any trying to fire Allied ammo in a Type 99 rifle.
Most history sources I’ve found say the Japanese Army noticed they were being out-shot by Mosin-Nagant 7.62mm model 1891 rifles in the Russo-Japanese War, way back in 1904-1905. They studied the .30 caliber ammo used by most sides in WWI and concluded they needed equivalent ammo. But in typical bureaucratic fashion they could not get the change approved until the eave of WWII.
I’ll think I submit this to Mythbusters and see if they will try to fire different types of ammo from an Arisaka Type 99.
rattletrap1970
Member
Type 38 Arisaka. 6.5x50 jap (which incidentally rechambers quite nicely for 6.5x55 Swedish)
scythefwd
Member
Mav -
This is the response I got back from the National Firearms Museum which is ran by the NRA.
"Thank you for your inquiry to the National Firearms Museum.
This is a persistent Internet rumor again surfacing.
Arisakas and many other former enemy arms were tested by US Army Ordnance, not NRA. These reports are summarized in Hatcher's Notebook, a book published by Julian Hatcher, Ordnance head and the man who later became NRA Dope Bag editor.
Hatcher's book noted a case where a man had fired .30-'06 and .35 Remington in a 7.7mm Arisaka rifle and on the third shot, the receiver gave way and a piece of steel was embedded in his brain.
National Firearms Museum"
A little bit of truth there, and the rest will kill you.
This is the response I got back from the National Firearms Museum which is ran by the NRA.
"Thank you for your inquiry to the National Firearms Museum.
This is a persistent Internet rumor again surfacing.
Arisakas and many other former enemy arms were tested by US Army Ordnance, not NRA. These reports are summarized in Hatcher's Notebook, a book published by Julian Hatcher, Ordnance head and the man who later became NRA Dope Bag editor.
Hatcher's book noted a case where a man had fired .30-'06 and .35 Remington in a 7.7mm Arisaka rifle and on the third shot, the receiver gave way and a piece of steel was embedded in his brain.
National Firearms Museum"
A little bit of truth there, and the rest will kill you.
Maverick223
Member
Ouch, but that sounds more plausible...whatcha' want to bet the .30-06 did just fine, but the receiver gave way on the first round of .35cal.?
navyretired 1
Member
Arisaka rifle
The rifle which was sent to NRA was indeed a type 38 rechamber by mistake to 30-06. and the estimated pressures were in excess of 100K CUPs.
Not recommended but sold as and shot as 30-06 was many Type 99, 7.7. The 30-06 would chamber and fire but wasn't too accurate as 7.7mm is .313" bullets while 30-06 is .308. but some shot good enough for hunting.
The type 38 could be rechambered to .257 Robt./6.5 jap wildcat which was a darn good shooter and very common after the war.
The rifle which was sent to NRA was indeed a type 38 rechamber by mistake to 30-06. and the estimated pressures were in excess of 100K CUPs.
Not recommended but sold as and shot as 30-06 was many Type 99, 7.7. The 30-06 would chamber and fire but wasn't too accurate as 7.7mm is .313" bullets while 30-06 is .308. but some shot good enough for hunting.
The type 38 could be rechambered to .257 Robt./6.5 jap wildcat which was a darn good shooter and very common after the war.
scythefwd
Member
navyretired 1 - what is your source for that info? I don't doubt your sincerity, but the NRA's museum disagrees with you on a couple of points. This could be fun to research a bit
Maverick223
Member
No offence navyretired 1, but I don't believe it unless you were the guy pulling the trigger, the NRA should at least know what they did...Aberdeen OTOH, who knows what they did (they probably don't)? I think I have Dr. William Atwater's (Director of US Ordnance Museum) E-Mail address around here somewhere, if I do I will shoot him one asking about it.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
Anyone know what the symbol where a mum is typically means?
I have heard some security units had non Mum rifles. (Its not shown on the link).
I have heard some security units had non Mum rifles. (Its not shown on the link).
Maverick223
Member
Likely the mark of the Emperor (like the mum itself), but I don't know for certain.
MachIVshooter
Member
Actually, one could fire a 7.7x58 in a .30-06 (7.62x63mm) rifle. The .311-.313 bullet diameter of the 7.7 would cause higher than normal pressures. The .303 brit chamber is too small to accomodate the Arisaka cartridge. The Arisaka would not be able to chamber any of the allied cartridges. .30-06 is too long, .303 rim is too large, 7.5x54 case is too wide (IIRC).
I don't think any army during the war actually tried to field a multi-cartridge weapon. The closest thing would be the 9mm conversions for the US M-3. Some Italian Carcanos were rechamberd to 8x57mm, but those are considered very dangerous, as the actions were far weaker than the 98 to begin with, and removing material to accomodate the larger cartridge further compromised the integrity.
It's changed since last week. Now it's just bigger.
I hid a roadblock with this project that I never expected. I can get a used bolt assy. from Numrich, it's high but available. But I can't get head-space gages in 6.5mm x 50 mm. Neither Forster or Clymer make them. So my question is, what do other people do? I can't be the first guy to need to check head-space on a Type 38 since WWII.
Maverick223
Member
Actually you might be...the Japs (and most other nations) didn't gauge anything too precisely.
"Put bamboo chunk in...it go in...you okay...[later that day]...need more rifle...no more worry about bamboo."
At long last Numrich sent my new bolt. It doesn't seem to fit into the receiver. Do I just need a bigger hammer? 
There don't seem to be slots milled into the receiver for the bolt to ride on.
Did they send the wrong bolt? Or am I missing the obvious.
There don't seem to be slots milled into the receiver for the bolt to ride on.
Did they send the wrong bolt? Or am I missing the obvious.
IIRC, I read somewhere that the chrysanthamun (?) flower on the top of the receive was a mark of the emperors ownership. The average Japanese soldier considered his rifle as the personal property of the emperor and was merely loaned to him.The after war surplus rifles had this mark ground off. The battlefield pick ups were the only Arasakas that still had this mark.If someone has more info or if I'm wrong, please correct me. Thanks.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
They made dummy and training rifles, you may have one of those? I am not an expert, but have a type 99 and in reading up on it came accross some interesting cautions about making sure it was a rifle intended to be shot.
BE CAREFUL!
On the other hand, you may have something really interesting........ Get pictures to or take it to a reliable expert on Japanese ww2 rifles.
BE CAREFUL!
On the other hand, you may have something really interesting........ Get pictures to or take it to a reliable expert on Japanese ww2 rifles.
Training rifles were not marked with the Chrysanthemum. There are some Arisakas out there with two concentric circles in place of the mum, which are generally thought to have been issued to groups like prison guards and secret police.
CZ Guy - Can you post some new pictures? The linked ones in your original post appear to have gone dead.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
I cant find an exact match, but it appears trainers often have markings brandished in the stock, have irregular actions, and may or may not be rifled.
I cant read japanese, so I dont know what the markings say, but a lot of clues look like its a "School Rifle" or trainer. In my humble opinion.
I cant read japanese, so I dont know what the markings say, but a lot of clues look like its a "School Rifle" or trainer. In my humble opinion.
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