Myth or Fact: Steel cased ammo wears down extractors

[Mt Shooter]

basic info before you spout more misinformation

I just reread it in the manual that came with my Olympic Arms AR. I have owned it for around four years now. If it has changed than so be it, however my supply of brass 223 rounds is good enough to last for a very long time. So as stated I dunno don't shoot the stuff.

 

[fireman 9731]

Look at a fired steel case, and a fired brass case.

They have identical wear marks in the same places, of the same magnitude.

The steel in steel cases is made to perform similarly to brass, and it does, for the exception of case life.

If your gun isn't tough enough to handle steel cases then shoot expensive ammo out of it or get a real gun that can!

 

[ants]

We've all noticed that some subjects are a little more contentious, and cause THR members to be a little impolite at times. This is one of them. I hope we all take a deep breath and keep it High Road.

This is actually a good thread. We always need to share our ideas, even on myth/truth questions no matter how elementary or technical.

 

[Mt Shooter]

Amen

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I just reread it in the manual that came with my Olympic Arms AR. I have owned it for around four years now.

I think just about every manufacturer says shooting steel case ammo will void your warranty. So will shooting reloads. It's a good way to deny warranty claims.
I purchased my first wolf ammo around 5 years ago (.223, it was $109/k IIRC), and have yet to get any with the lacquer on it, it's all been poly coated.

If you hate steel cased ammo don't use it.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The steel used in Russian (and other former communist) ammunition is an alloy that is as hard as the metal it replaces (brass, copper, etc).

run one of those steel cases through a sizing die and report back to us

Exactly. It's a very mild steel, indeed, but there is no steel that is as soft as Brass.

 

[dumbhunter]

I voted yes, but...

Wear down... probably not. Break... yup. I have seen 2 instances of broken extractors in AR's that were shooting Wolf. Both extractors snapped off right at the hook. In both cases it caused a double feed and took a cleaning rod and a mallet to remove the stuck case. In one case, the little piece of the hardened steel from the extractor played havoc and scratched the bolt and gouged the inside of the upper receiver.

Now, I don't believe for a second that this was due to the extractor contacting the steel cases and wearing down, but rather that either the lacquer coating, and/or the steel casings themselves resulted in more force being applied to the extractor. What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that the steel cased stuff "sticks" in the chamber more. It might be the coatings that are applied to the casings. It might be that upon firing, the steel doesn't "rebound" as well as brass, and brass is more mailable than steel .

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

So the steel sticks because it is less malleable than brass?

 

[481]

This issue can be addressed after a quick check over at http://www.matweb.com/ The following data is from this source.

In order to make an "apples-to-apples" comparison, I kept the respective material hardness ratings data to the Rockwell Hardness "B" (HRB) scale.

As a "frame of reference":

"High" carbon (0.90-1.03%) steel (series 1095, annealed, used in knife blades, etc.) has an HRB of 99.

"Low" carbon (0.22-0.28%) steel (series 1025, annealed), typical of the "mild" steel that is used to manufacture steel cartridge cases, has a HRB of 71.

HO6 70/30 "cartridge" brass (70% Copper, 30% Zinc) has an HRB of 83 making it significantly harder than the low carbon (mild) steel most likely used to fabricate ammunition cases.

"Cold worked/drawn" gilding metal alloy (95Cu/05Zn) has a HRB of 70 making it every bit as hard as the low carbon steel and this alloy is what is in contact with the inside of your barrel (bore) as you send FMJs and JHPs down range through your gun's barrel.

As for running steel cartridge cases (and/or bullets with jackets made of "mild" low carbon steel) through your guns, as long as you've got a quality gun, I doubt seriously that you'll "hurt" your gun.

Put me down for "Myth".

 

[wally]

run one of those steel cases through a sizing die and report back to us

Actually I've ran thousands of the Wolf .45ACP steel cases through reloading dies. I save a lot of my once-fired Wolf .45ACP steel cases and reload them for shooting in my Thompson SMG at my friend's ranch were I'm not going to find the brass afterwards in the weeds. Never any issues.

My only lacquer stuck case issue was in a gun that had been in storage for a long time and I should have run a bore snake through the chamber first, I figure oil was in the chamber which made the case stick. No issues after I pounded out the stuck case. Has made me check guns that have sat for years in the safe before shooting them again.

Never had a stuck case with the polymer coated stuff. The Monarch is still lacquer coated and works very well for me. The old Wolf lacquer could have been different, but I've shot mine all up with only that single stuck case issue mentioned above.

--wally.

 

[shotgunsrfun]

I guess that is why everyone has more than one gun because if one breaks you have a backup. Some have dozens they should not worry about these things.

 

[MachIVshooter]

481-

Brass cartridges are annealed, making them softer than as-drawn. Steel cases typically are not. Also, brass cannot be heat-treated. Heat will always anneal brass.

The other important factor is tensile strength/memory. Brass is a very maleable metal with very little memory. Even with a higher HRC, it will deform easier and stay deformed.

Steel cases behave more like their much-maligned nickel-plated brass counterparts, the nickel adding greatly to the surface hardness and tensile strength of the brass.

There are two reasons nearly all steel case ammo is either laquered, polymer coated or zinc plated. Corrosion resistance is one. Trying to make the case behave more like brass and absorb foreign particles in the chamber is the other.

Try cleaning the coating off your steel cases and see how they run and the kind of damage they'll do to a chamber. I have old 7.62x45mm Czech ammo that the coated has deteriorated on over the last half century, and they get stuck. Bad. Brass cases run just fine.

 

[MountainBear]

Yes, I believe steel cases cause wear on extractors and other parts. But all I know for sure is that Wolf ammo smell like cat piss, so I don't use it.

 

[possum]

i believe it to be a myth, i have shot wolf in many guns and have seen it shot in many guns in training courses (very high rd counts) with no ill effects.

 

[Erik M]

Brother has about 1000k rounds of wolf steel cased ammo through his beater rifle, no visible erosion from the extractor. We havent taken a caliper to it or anything to measure beyond what is visible to the naked eye.

 

[481]

Brass cartridges are annealed, making them softer than as-drawn. Steel cases typically are not. Also, brass cannot be heat-treated. Heat will always anneal brass.

The other important factor is tensile strength/memory. Brass is a very maleable metal with very little memory. Even with a higher HRC, it will deform easier and stay deformed.

Steel cases behave more like their much-maligned nickel-plated brass counterparts, the nickel adding greatly to the surface hardness and tensile strength of the brass.

There are two reasons nearly all steel case ammo is either laquered, polymer coated or zinc plated. Corrosion resistance is one. Trying to make the case behave more like brass and absorb foreign particles in the chamber is the other.

Try cleaning the coating off your steel cases and see how they run and the kind of damage they'll do to a chamber. I have old 7.62x45mm Czech ammo that the coated has deteriorated on over the last half century, and they get stuck. Bad. Brass cases run just fine.

And yet I've never had a problem with steel cases after thousands through my assorted weapons. (Steel can be annealed as can brass)

None of those with whom I shoot (and whom also expend large quantities of steel cased ammo) have ever had a problem with steel cased ammunition either.

My experience and that of many satisfied consumers, in addition to the factual material that I've presented (via the materials engineering website) above, suggests that the use of steel cartridge cases in modern high quality firearms is simply not an issue.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think just about every manufacturer says shooting steel case ammo will void your warranty. So will shooting reloads. It's a good way to deny warranty claims.

If you are shooting a Glock, you can buy a new gun with the savings after every 5-6 1000 round cases. On an AR15, it would be on about every 7-12 cases. Effectively, could be getting free guns with the savings. False economy? I think not.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Brother has about 1000k rounds of wolf steel cased ammo through his beater rifle, no visible erosion from the extractor. We havent taken a caliper to it or anything to measure beyond what is visible to the naked eye.

Holy guacamole!

 

[REAPER4206969]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mbf4C-8ViM

 

[Patrick R]

In NE Ohio I can buy Wolf 9mm for $8.00 per 50 round box. Cheap.

 

[dom1104]

Honestly, I cannot make heads or tails of this thread. so much stated as fact then refuted then counter-refuted.

I am convinced no one knows anything.

I dont shoot wolf, if I want to plink with my AR I shoot 22lr thru it.

I figure the savings there will allow me to shoot "the good stuff" whenever I want without guilt. besides, you get the keep the brass, which you can reload so... there ya go.

Nobody said shooting would be cheap. Reloading is a good option to cheapen it.

 

[makarovnik]

Some extractors are not all that cheap or easy to replace. If it is a com bloc weapon I use steel case in it, if it's American made I try to steer clear.

 

[MachIVshooter]

And yet I've never had a problem with steel cases after thousands through my assorted weapons. (Steel can be annealed as can brass)

I never said it was gauranteed to cause problems, nor did I say that steel can't be annealed. I do plenty of metal working, and we anneal work-hardened steel all the time.

What I said it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that steel-on-steel will cause more wear than brass on steel, and I said that steel cases typically are not annealed.

 

[1911Tuner]

The material itslef isn't really the problem. Steel cases are mild steel, and very soft. If the material was in a sheet, you could probably tear it with your hands. There is the issue of the case not springing back like brass after it expands, but even that isn't a real problem for a good extractor. The problem...and this was noticed and noted with older Wolf...is with the extractor groove geometry.

Had an aquaintence at the PHA range who found a super deal on several cases of Wolf .45 ammo. Uber-cheap stuff that shot well. It was the first that I'd ever seen up close...and I didn't pay much attention to it other than the fact that it was an odd color and it stunk when it was fired.

The problem started when he lost his first extractor. Snapped it off flush with the breechface. He called me and because I had a few Wilson Bulletproof extractors on hand...he came by for a replacement.

Less than 500 rounds later...history repeated itself. ANother extractor out of my inventory and he carried on. By the end of the second case...another one let go, in exactly the same way as the others. I had him bring his ammo this time...and that's when I noticed it.

He sold the remaining Wolf ammunition to somebody, and switched back to Wally-World valu-pak .45...and his extractor problems evaporated. That was...2005, if memory serves me...and the last extractor is still shuckin' and jivin'.

I was forced to draw the obvious and logical conclusion.

I know of others who have used it and have had no issues. I also know of several who have used it and have reported recurring extractor problems.