One of the gun rags had an article on this very topic within the past month or two. I apologize for not remembering which one, but the conclusion of the article was point of impact can change for the first few shots out of a clean barrel. The change in some was not very much, but others were off by as much as 3 inches at 100 yards. If your rifle is shooting fine, I wouldn't clean it until after the season is over.
Myth or Fact?
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R.W.Dale
Member
An inch NO but two inches at 100 quickly puts you outside an 6" kill zone at longer ranges.
I think it's irresponsible NOT to account for that margin of error. Not all game is taken at 45yds with a 30-30
rangerruck
Member
Again, everyone go and find the latest issue of "rifle' magazine. the above Jenrick dude is correct, what happens is this, even if it is clean , but oiled, the stuff in the bbl slows down the round, this leaves the bullet in the rifle longer, which allows the whip effect to throw the bullet 'up' when it exits the muzzle, which is why most first shots, out of a clean oiled, dirty cold, dirty warm, or old dirty, shots are usually high within 2 inches of point of aim. and they are also usually predictalby high, to one side or the other. The shot that was closest to point of aim, for a first shot, came from his test with both clean and dry, cold bbls. now once he got them warmed up with a couple of shots, they all dropped into their point of aims, but changed again , once he let them set, either for an hour , or a week.
cracked butt
Member
From the OP:
While keeping a log of the first shot is all nice and handy, it doesn't apply to the OPs situation. He was sighting in the rifle when shooting it, so he'll have no idea where the first shot will go with a clean oiled barrel. Since the deviation with a cold fouled bore is going to be a whole lot less than the deviation with a cold clean oiled bore, its not a good idea to clean the rifle.
While keeping a log of the first shot is all nice and handy, it doesn't apply to the OPs situation. He was sighting in the rifle when shooting it, so he'll have no idea where the first shot will go with a clean oiled barrel. Since the deviation with a cold fouled bore is going to be a whole lot less than the deviation with a cold clean oiled bore, its not a good idea to clean the rifle.
Funderb
Member
I suppose in a hunting situation this is a correct thing, not to clean.
But I am going to guess that it's more important with a scope.
am I right?
But I am going to guess that it's more important with a scope.
am I right?
Funderb
Member
I went down to the range and shot at 100 yards.
Honestly, there was no discrepancy in my rifles.
I shot with both an m44 with a scope, and an m91/30
with iron sights.
They held consistent groups clean and after rounds.
the difference must have been a couple centimeters if any.
Even so, the logic of this argument is erroneous.
If you sight in a rifle, then clen it, the only reason you should have such a massive jump (2"+) at 100 yards is if:
A: you have shot more than 50 rounds to sight it in
B: the bore of your rifle is not compatible with that size round
C: a combination of both.
and as a side note, D: sighting rifle in with different ammo than what you hunt with will aslo cause error on the hunt.
But really, there shouldn't be that much of a difference in modern rifles.
in black powder, yes, but the whole idea of smokeless powder is that it leaves a very small, almost immeasurable amount of residue.
Honestly, there was no discrepancy in my rifles.
I shot with both an m44 with a scope, and an m91/30
with iron sights.
They held consistent groups clean and after rounds.
the difference must have been a couple centimeters if any.
Even so, the logic of this argument is erroneous.
If you sight in a rifle, then clen it, the only reason you should have such a massive jump (2"+) at 100 yards is if:
A: you have shot more than 50 rounds to sight it in
B: the bore of your rifle is not compatible with that size round
C: a combination of both.
and as a side note, D: sighting rifle in with different ammo than what you hunt with will aslo cause error on the hunt.
But really, there shouldn't be that much of a difference in modern rifles.
in black powder, yes, but the whole idea of smokeless powder is that it leaves a very small, almost immeasurable amount of residue.
Rokman
Member
My Remington 700 .25-06 will be off as much as 3'' from a clean barrel. It then will settle in to .5-.75'' moa with a fouled barrel.
99%, if not 100%, of benchrest shooters shoot a fouler or two on the "sighter" portion of the target before starting a group "for record". I think the High Power guys do the same thing.
Most rifles will shoot to a different point of impact from a cold clean barrel. How much varies greaty, and the application determines how important it is, if at all.
If your hunting rifle shoots 3/4 to 1 inch different POI from a cold clean barrel vs a fouled semi warm barrel, then so what, you will still kill your deer. The important thing to know is where that first shot is going to go from your hunting rifle.
Most rifles will shoot to a different point of impact from a cold clean barrel. How much varies greaty, and the application determines how important it is, if at all.
If your hunting rifle shoots 3/4 to 1 inch different POI from a cold clean barrel vs a fouled semi warm barrel, then so what, you will still kill your deer. The important thing to know is where that first shot is going to go from your hunting rifle.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
IMO, Jenrick said it best. I have an accurized Remington 700 VSSF in .308 (no longer made, unfortunately) that shoots very accurately from a warm bore. First shot from a cold bore, however, is 1 MOA low and left ... every time. Discovered this by taking multiple cold bore shots over a six day training course.
Once you get your rifle zeroed at 100 and shooting consistently at that distance, every "first round" on subsequent range trips should be recorded and accumulated. That will let you know what to expect from your cold bore.
FWIW, the instructor at the course I attended advised against cleaning the barrel for the entire six days. He reported that his "duty" rifle was into the thousands of rounds without cleaning the bore. He wanted the only variable to be whether the barrel was cold or warm.
Once you get your rifle zeroed at 100 and shooting consistently at that distance, every "first round" on subsequent range trips should be recorded and accumulated. That will let you know what to expect from your cold bore.
FWIW, the instructor at the course I attended advised against cleaning the barrel for the entire six days. He reported that his "duty" rifle was into the thousands of rounds without cleaning the bore. He wanted the only variable to be whether the barrel was cold or warm.
P-32
Member
It depnds on the rifle. My Winny F/W in '06 doesn't care cold or clean until the barrel gets very warm. (5th shot with no cool down) My muzzel loader needs a fouling shot before hunting with it as it does shoot to a lot different spot when clean compaired to fouled shots.
First clean cold shot out of my issued 308 LTR is maybe 1/4" off subsequint shots. Good enough.
First clean cold shot out of my issued 308 LTR is maybe 1/4" off subsequint shots. Good enough.
You gotta love all this. "It shouldn't", "I don't see how", " I don't think so". Whatever happened to personal experience being THE gauge to go buy instead of what your imagination tells you??
Who are the most anal shooters? Benchrest competitors. You will NEVER see any competitor shoot out of a fresh, clean or oiled barrel. They are called fouling shots for a reason... to season the barrel to shoot that ammo to point of aim.
I have seen dozens of deer over my years shot poorly. Inevitably they were shot from fresh clean guns. They guys that have old nicked up, unclean barreled guns are the ones that can put the bullet where he wants.
My own personal experience is that every gun I own will shoot to a different POI from a cold, oiled barrel that from a fouled barrel. Some more than others, but every single one. One maybe an inch, another over 3". That is at 100 yards off of a bench at paper. 6" is damned small target at 200 yards when buck fever has you wobbling in an 18" circle.
Who are the most anal shooters? Benchrest competitors. You will NEVER see any competitor shoot out of a fresh, clean or oiled barrel. They are called fouling shots for a reason... to season the barrel to shoot that ammo to point of aim.
I have seen dozens of deer over my years shot poorly. Inevitably they were shot from fresh clean guns. They guys that have old nicked up, unclean barreled guns are the ones that can put the bullet where he wants.
My own personal experience is that every gun I own will shoot to a different POI from a cold, oiled barrel that from a fouled barrel. Some more than others, but every single one. One maybe an inch, another over 3". That is at 100 yards off of a bench at paper. 6" is damned small target at 200 yards when buck fever has you wobbling in an 18" circle.
Funderb
Member
I took the yugo mauser out to the range,
it's group clean vs. dirty is way different.
So yeah, you guys are right,
it just applies to the particular weapon.
My mosins just don't seem to care.
They are at the point where the bore is broken in but still new, so that makes sense.
Though I can't say the bullet's poi ever surprises me.
Comfort. the firearm is an extension of your body,
if you are used to it, it's all good.
it's group clean vs. dirty is way different.
So yeah, you guys are right,
it just applies to the particular weapon.
My mosins just don't seem to care.
They are at the point where the bore is broken in but still new, so that makes sense.
Though I can't say the bullet's poi ever surprises me.
Comfort. the firearm is an extension of your body,
if you are used to it, it's all good.
Funderb said:
And that is exactly why it is so ... suprising when something like a cold barrel flier happens... it's like your mind can't quite grasp it for a second... "the hold was good... the sight picture was good.... the trigger press was good... what the heck is wrong here???"
This much I know is true from experience. I do a lot of bench shooting. The first round from the clean barrel is known as the fouling round. It will fly somewhat differently than the rest. For hunting purposes probably not a factor. The process to sight a rifle for hunting is this. Get the firearm generally sighted in at 100 yrds. Clean it. Then get the batch or box of ammo you will use to hunt with. Take two shots. Let the firearm cool completely in as much of the same ambient condition that you are likely to see when hunting. Then take 3 more shots. This will be your hunting zero. Then take it hunting using the same batch or box of ammo.
cracked butt
Member
Or the groove diameter on your mosins are so grossly oversized that a film of oil makes little to no difference. I own a 1/2 dozen mosins, every single one of htem has a groove diameter of 0.03-0.06" over the diameter of the bullet. None of them are worthy of being used for unting over 100 yards. My hunting rifles all have groove diameter equal to the bullet diameter- My longest shot to date on game was 410 yards, would I have taken that shot with a clean bore? NO.
Funderb
Member
Generally, when I buy a rifle, the most important quality is round fit.
I can assure you that the barrel is well fitted to the bullet.
My m91/30 can hold a 1.5-3" pattern when being shot benchrest at 100 yards, depending on the day I'm having.
When we tested the rifles weighted, clamped and bagged, patterns dropped to 1" or fewer.
The m44 was a little bit worse, but that's to be expected.
Like I said before, I'm sure after 50 rounds there would be a big difference when cleaned, but not after four or five.
Granted, I just started looking into this, because bench rest shooting is my least favourite style.
I'd much rather lay around in the grass and shoot at cans and watermelons. At that point, who cares about a fouling shot?
I can assure you that the barrel is well fitted to the bullet.
My m91/30 can hold a 1.5-3" pattern when being shot benchrest at 100 yards, depending on the day I'm having.
When we tested the rifles weighted, clamped and bagged, patterns dropped to 1" or fewer.
The m44 was a little bit worse, but that's to be expected.
Like I said before, I'm sure after 50 rounds there would be a big difference when cleaned, but not after four or five.
Granted, I just started looking into this, because bench rest shooting is my least favourite style.
I'd much rather lay around in the grass and shoot at cans and watermelons. At that point, who cares about a fouling shot?
This is a pic of a group I shot yesterday. It's @ 100 yrds. from the bench.
5 rds. total. This is typical. Can you guess which round is the fouling round?
When you are shooting bench rest and not only counting 10 rings but Xs also it matters. Two guys have the same score and countless times the Xs break the tie.
5 rds. total. This is typical. Can you guess which round is the fouling round?
When you are shooting bench rest and not only counting 10 rings but Xs also it matters. Two guys have the same score and countless times the Xs break the tie.
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cracked butt
Member
Have you actually slugged the barrels of your rifles?
The bigger deviation with the first shot out of your Yugo mauser vs a mosin nagant is probably because the Yugo mauser's grooves are much closer to the bullet diameter.
FWIW, my Yugo mauser is the only mauser I have that has a groove diameter close to 0.323" (It slugs at 0.3235") The rest vary from .324" to .326".
Ever watch you windshield wipers while its raining? The water piles up in front of the wiper due to the tight fit of the rubber to the glass. The same happens in a rifle barrel with oil when a bullet travels down it- the oil piles up in front of the bullet, slowing it down, also if too much oil is in the bore, the barrle will be damaged. Military rifle grooves are purposely oversized to prevent damage to the barrel if debris/excess oil/water gets into the bore. The only rare exception is the K-31 barrels which are matched very carefully to the bullets used, even 1903 springfields are typically grooved 0.002"+ and Swede mausers are 0.003-0.004" over bullet diameter.
A heavy barreled varmint or benchrest rifle which has very little vibration to it will throw the first shot, while something like a winchester model 70 hunting rifle with a thin whippy barrel or a remington 7400 which has even more harmonic issues will throw the first shot much further typically.
P-32
Member
It depends on the rifle.....My thin wimpy Mdl 70 F/W '06 barrel will put the first 4 shots sub MOA from a cold clean barrel. It's the 5th one that flys out to make the group slightly over MOA. No cool down between shots. Done this time and time again. I use a spotting scope (821 Kowa) to check the target. When hunting I hardly ever get past shot # 1 taking neck shots. Last deer I shot was a little further out than I like so I placed 1 round in the lung and heart area behind the left front shoulder. It tipped over DRT after walking about 20 feet.
Win75
Member
I always check my zero on my hunting rifles about a week before season. I do not clean the bores until after I am through deer hunting. My rifles will change POI with the first shot out of a clean barrel.
I have a blackpowder rifle (CVA Optima Pro) that will shoot 3 inches higher with a fouled barrel than with a clean barrel.
I have a blackpowder rifle (CVA Optima Pro) that will shoot 3 inches higher with a fouled barrel than with a clean barrel.
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