Natural Ability and?...

[Dave McCracken]

A fun morning at PGC, with a little lesson.

Young fellow named Joel was the only other shooter when I pulled up at Range 9. He had a beautiful 687 Gold Pigeon Beretta, which he bought because it was pretty.

Pretty aside, he crushed most of the targets in the next 4-5 rounds of trap.

Interestingly enough, he did it low gun, and his best round was 24. My best round was 22.

I'm neither surprised nor dismayed when someone shoots better than I. A good thing, since it happens frequently.

But, according to Joel, he started last summer, and had never fired a gun at all until two years ago. His boss is a skeet shooter and got him interested. He had one lesson from a good teacher and read one book, the name of which he's forgotten. Joel says the writer was English.

He shoots low gun because it works better for him than premounted.

By his estimate, he's fired a total of maybe 2000 rounds.

Sounds like a refutation of BA/UU/R, huh?

Not necessarily. He's got good form, that lovely B-gun probably fits well, and he's done some homework. The tape on his glasses helps with mixed eye/hand dominance.

I hope to see him again. I'd like to see how he shoots a year down the line.

Comments?

 

[sm]

Natural Ability: I'm sure this young man has indeed been blessed with some. It's like those that never seem to study, and make good grades.

Manages Time Well: Young man appears smooth and cool because he chose to. He sounds like he knows what he wants, listens more than speaks, learned to ask the right questions. Most likely does not follow the crowd, he follows his heart, soul, wishes and aspiratrions.

Discipline and Focus: Young man learned self discipline and focus. Good parenting, and most likely noticed from observing life, Dale C. had a good message in the quote:
They're are men in the ranks whom will stay in the ranks. Why? I 'll tell you why, they haven't the ability to get things done.

Yep sounds like the young man has natural ability. Sounds like to me the young man learned some valuable lessons early. Instead of wasting time and learning bad habits, and form , he instead asked questions of that boss that shoots. We didin't see the young man try many guns before he selected on that fit, nor did we see the final tweak on fitting. We probably didn't see the hours he emulated the proper stance, mounted gun to face, as he read the works of the English writer. We may have been on the internet, watching TV, sleeping late...when this young man was studying up and practicing. He probably didn't roll over and sleep late, He may have stayed up till the wee hours.

Natural ability, yes perhaps. Then again he didn't waste time learning incorrectly, getting confused with mixed signals, unlearning and relearning more bad habits. Yep he has a nice gun, the gun will increase in value. More important though is he invested in himself first , then the gun. Exponentially those profits gained will surpass the Beretta .

Natural ability, yeah, then again behind the scenes...
Repeptition becomes habit-habit becomes faith

You keep doing what you've always done you end up with same result...he just has the knack of good study habits in the lesson of life, shotguns and such...that too often passes as natural ability.

 

[TrapperReady]

When I started, I drove the guy who got me interested absolutely nuts. He'd been shooting for years and is a very capable shotgunner. However, within 6 months or so, I was easily matching him most of the time and often finishing a round of clays or trap a target or two up.

He commented a number of times that I had natural talent. I don't think that's quite right. I grew up shooting BB and pellet guns the way some kids watch TV... it was my default activity. I'd be sitting out on the back porch shooting into the yard unless there was something else compelling to do.

As a young adult, I learned the fundamentals of marksmanship courtesy of the US Army, which was even kind enough to grant me the opportunity to practice periodically. In later years, I didn't shoot much... maybe the occasional handgun at a range, but long-guns weren't on the radar. The funny thing is that I still participated in a lot of "precision" activities (darts, billiards, archery, throwing rocks at stuff in the woods).

When my neighbor suggested that I dust of my Model 12 and go to the range with him, everything felt really natural and I was breaking targets quickly and consistently. To some, that might indicate some form of "natural talent"... I tend to think of it more as an extension of a lifetime of related skills.

However, what I've found the last couple years is that the easy part is over. If I want to improve, I have to work (and work hard) at it. Right now, family commitments keep me from getting out as much as I'd like (although that trade-off is a no-brainer ). Once the kids get old enough to take up the sport, then I may see just how good I can get. For now, I have fun at the range and shoot well enough to keep the freezer full of tasty meat treats.

 

[P95Carry]

Interesting Dave .. at one of my clubs (the one that has regretably had to go over to steel! ) ...... a young guy started last season - and IIRC used his Dad's (or was it Uncle's) gun. The gun was not particularly remarkable as I recall.

Now HE shot low gun .... and when asked just said it ''felt better'' .. and oh my - could he hit those birds ... even with skeet he was really punishing them. Now his only experience had been a limited amount of game shooting .. ''in the field''. To me - that young guy DOES have a talent ... sure of it. I reckon sometimes people just ''have it''.!

Me? Damned hard work usually. Very ''hot/cold'' performance.


Which begs a question .. directed at anyone ..... Not only do I find but also some very skilled and experience shots at either club .. can and do have ''bad days'' .. I mean REAL bad days. It is hard to explain .... particularly when you miss three straight-aways in a row!!

Then, next shoot ... WOW! ... can't seem to miss! is this you think a stress thing (residue from work day .. problems etc) .... or is it something we can overcome somehow?

One guy always works on the principle that .... only the next shot matters .. even if you have just missed .. but I find that easier said than done! Oh and same guy ... helped me with one aspect of skeet .... mid stations where crossing birds ... he said ''miss in front'' ... damn good advice i found that!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for the answers, folks.

sm,agreed. With the right start, the learning curve HAS to be a lot shorter, natural ability or not.

TR, I've a friend who rarely shoots a shotgun. When he does, he mostly hits. He does shoot a bow very well, his hunting tool of choice. He's got 20/15 vision, is in great shape, and is a fine athlete. How much of his success is due to his gifts and how much is due to long and arduous practice is debateable.

P95,same here. If I shoot trap 3 days a week, I've little trouble maintaining a 24/25 average. If I'm shooting less, my scores plunge in a flaming handbasket.

Since I gave the guy this website, lessee if he pipes up....

 

[TrapperReady]

P95 - What I've observed in myself over the past couple of years is that when I become complacent, my shooting really suffers (mostly I'm talking about trap, but also SC to some extent). By that, I mean that I go through the motions of being on the line and shooting the targets, but I'm not truly focusing on the clays.

On the good nights, I pay no attention to the gun, the other shooters, or anything else... all I see is the target as it moves away from the trap house. Those nights are usually full of straights and the shooting is fun.

The bad nights are the opposite. I look at the bead, concentrate on my swing, feel the position of the gun mount... and the target looks like a fuzzy aspirin.

What I've found is that I can usually turn things around pretty quickly, by simply directing all of my attention onto the target. In most cases, I can fix it within a round. However, I've found that if I can't concentrate sufficiently, then it makes no sense to keep going. I'll just pack up the bag and head for home.

The thing that I'm trying to figure out is how to either (A) eliminate/curb this or (B) predict when it will happen. I usually have a pretty good average in our trap leagues, but I still end up having a few rounds drag me down each season. If I can figure out a way to get rid of those bad ones, I should be able to compete with some of the best folks around here.

 

[sm]

Concentration

Fred Missleldine wrote: Concentration is mentally keyed-up, physically relaxed.

I believe the people that do best in anything, including Shooting have Focus; Concentration if you will.

I have seen shooters that I knew were going through a divorce, bad business deal, family problems, I knew they were. They only had one thing on their minds when they stepped up to the pad and called for a bird. Ten seconds before they may just shared their teenager stole the family car, got drunk, wrecked it and spent the night in jail.

Nope everything was erased from the mind when the quail flushed, or the bird called for... Finish the conversation after the dead/felled bird.

I learned to shoot without sights and low gun as a brat, well nobody goes around with a mounted gun to hunt birds/fur. I read Misseldine and basically taught Misseldine's way. Islieng and Brister just re-enforced it.

I went to mounted gun, but being a rebel I did not shoot sustained as everyone was "drifting" towards. I can shoot most anything, I shot best with swing-through. I can miss in any method...aha !! I do have some natural ability.

When I got into trouble , pressure was on, I was made aware that I went to low gun, honest I didn't realize I had done so during a shoot off, that is why I rec'd such a strange look from the Ref, my opponents, viewers, they noticed...all I cared about was the leading slice of that White Flyer Target.

I had gone back to a level of training, what they say is true, one does that when the stress hits. Concentration, learning the basics, and repetition...gee that gets harped on a bunch in life stuff, not to mention shooting.

I was like Trapper...I drove the men nuts to teach me. It is said I inherited some stuff from Grandparents, ( rifle shotgun and handgun) My dad, was in Nat'l Guard and always made the better scores with rifle and handgun, he wouldn't know a shotshell from a vacuum cleaner...he, to my knowledge has never touched either.

I found out many many years later my dad actually showed up to see me shoot a tourney. A customer of his and a friend of mine brought him out. We had not seen each other in years, his decision too many ago,so he was advised to stay in the shadows because the concern was my focus and concentration. He would never say to my face anything constructive, and he never will. He did get slack-jawed, and remarked something about his dad and grandad and compared me to them. When asked ( skeet folks are friendly) if he had taught me, he said no. He left when I was last man standing, and before I turned to leave the field.

I never knew my paternal granparents , they all had passed before i was born,or by age 2. I understand they could "paint" a bird with a shotgun. My maternal grandmother I knew till she passed when I was 5 . Mom said she and her would let me shoot as a wee kid on grandma's knee with a pistol, mom could shoot a revolver. Maternal Grandad is said if it was meant to be shot, he could shoot it. Didin't matter what , it just seemed he had knack to hit with it. I need to investigate a story of him , a war, perhaps being a sniper of sorts...that area is vague and nobody really knows, he kept stuff to himself.

Guess I "might" have rec'd some good genes on some stuff...sure did not get the genes for some stuff tho...math still drives me nuts.

 

[Kingcreek]

intersting discussion
I also shoot everything from a low mount. Always have. just because it feels right. I shoot best when physically relaxed and movement is "fluid" and a mounted gun just doesn't get me there. Never shot sporting clays until 2 years ago. Shot every target from a low mount and broke 89/100 first time out. Had been shooting skeet for about 1 year before that. I typically shoot skeet 2x/month and average 24/25.
Like TrapperReady, I too wore out BB guns as a kid. learned to shoot sparrows in flight as they flew between the barn and the feed lot. That's got to play a part in this.
I think I could be a competitive shotgunner if I was willing to work at it but at my age, I'm just not going to spend the time. Maybe when (and if) I retire.

 

[P95Carry]

Funny Dave ... how you cannot predict a thread's progress .. this one however has hit lucky and has ''blossomed'' ... most enjoyable and thx to all concerned.

 

[Norton]

I think that shooting, like many activities, has folks who were just "born to do it".

As a musician and teacher, I've had kids who just sound great the first time they pick up a horn....with no prior instruction. Call it what you want: Talent....ability....some people are just fortunate to find what they are good at. Maybe it's just that certain synapses are firing in the correct order at the right time and that's what puts it all together.

Of course, there's always a work ethic involved on order to improve....but for some folks it just seems to come a little bit easier.....

BTW: Dave, I was at PGC on Saturday and shot four rounds with the Beretta single shot. My best score was an 18 or 19 (I lost count about 16)....of course I also had a 10 on one round

Wife told me a rumor that my FIL may have an "extra" 870 sitting around for me to "borrow" when we go down on the 26th

 

[HSMITH]

I don't know anything at all about natural talent. I have been told I have it, but the way I see it I have worked for everything I have. Practice, determination, willingness to learn and the desire to get better gave me the little talent I have. People say I learn fast, I say I learn harder than others, meaning I try to learn more faster. Learning to me is the #1 thing I like to do regardless of subject, teaching is #2, if I could make a living at either I would be very happy.....

I have not shot a sporting target or a skeet target with a pre-mounted gun in YEARS and years. Low gun lets me move, and more importantly it lets me SEE . I, at one time, averaged up over 99/100 shooting skeet low gun. At the same time I could shoot about the same scores with a mounted gun, but it feels wrong to me and it is easy to get bound up or miss seeing the bird coming out of the window. Never have been much more than a B+ or an A- sporting shot, but then again I am quite a bit above middle of the road.

Trap I will shoot the 16-22 yard stuff with a mounted gun, I find trap very "fast" and like the time it gives me. Go figure, at skeet it feels like I have all day, yet a hard right from the 16 yard line on the trap field feels like it is extremely fast. I shoot my best trap scores from the 24+ yard lines, low gun or mounted matters little.

 

[TrapperReady]

HSMITH - I completely agree with low-gun allowing you to really see the target. I've hardly shot any skeet, but do a fair amount of sporting, and shoot much better from low-gun.

In fact, I've found that it's not uncommon for me to make the occasional horrible gun-mount (out on my bicep, hung up too low in the pocket, etc...) and still do fine, as long as I really focus on the leading edge of the target. Also, when shooting sporting, I've found that on following pairs I do better dropping the gun out of the pocket and lowering the barrel between shots. It just plain helps me to see the target.

Here's a somewhat lengthy anecdote I've been thinking about recently... This past week, I went out with a friend for a little late-season pheasant hunt. Late in the day, our dogs kicked up a bird in front of us, out of some pretty heavy cover. I was closest, but fumbled with the safety. The bird curled back past us and was starting to go into overdrive. I rushed my shot and shot behind. With my second shot, I was too eager not to repeat my initial error and ended up shooting in front. My buddy got a shot off in there, which may have lightly hit, but the bird continued away.

Anyway, I racked the last shell into the chamber and thought "Nope... it's too far." and started to lower my gun. But by then I was totally focused on the bird and could see it's head as it quartered away to the right. I changed my mind and swung well past it, making sure that I my swing was slightly over the bird's back.

It cartwheeled out of the sky in a very "dead in the air" fashion. I found it laying exactly where I had marked it down. This was easily the longest shot that I've ever made (and I think the longest I've taken). In fact, I'm kind of mad at myself for taking the shot, and I'm mostly just relieved that it worked out OK.

I've replayed this sequence a lot in the past few days, and come up with a few conclusions. First, I'm convinced that I missed the first two easy shots because I was flustered at bumbling the safety. I know that when I took the first shot, I wasn't concentrating on the bird, I was thinking "Crap, it's getting away." I'm convinced that the little pause I had when I considered not taking the shot was enough to make that last one totally seperate from the previous bad ones. Also, since I made sure I could see the bird's head (never wanting to try a long-range shot at a rooster flying straight away), I was concentrating completely on the bird. The last part of it is that I had lots of practice with my gun, had picked the loads to work at distance and have done enough long-range shooting (usually when messing around on the trap field) to know I've got to hold a little high.

So, I attribute that bird to concentration, picking the right equipment and lots of practice.

Or luck...

 

[sm]

You can't shoot,what you can't see - Misseldine

Trapper, H , I agree low gun allows to better "see" or track the target. Now I'm moving, the gun is moving, but my focus is on the target/bird.

TR interesting you mention that experience. Brister and others have written that often a pump gunner may actually have an advantage over other platforms. Reasoning is, for a brief millisec after the first shot, the shooter must "re-focus", "re-see" the target/bird. So tho' not a low gun mount, the fact the shooter re aquires the target [sight, speed, angle] and usually so focused and swinging, he is not going to stop a swing.

Other platforms it is too easy to just pop off more than one bad shot. Sorta like spray and pray...don't see the target but keep popping a shot off and hope a miracle happens.

 

[TrapperReady]

sm - It's funny that you mention that bit about pumps requiring you to re-see the target. The buddy I was hunting with always uses an O/U, and typically unleashes both barrels very, very close together. I've hunted a fair amount with him, and I don't think I've ever seen him hit with the second shot (unless it is on a totally different bird).

A while back I had a post about scoring well on a hard sporting course, while using my 20ga. 870. One of the things that I found was that I seemed to be more in sync with the rhythm of the targets. When shooting an auto or an O/U at following pairs, I'll often break the first target and immediately look for the second, only to have it come out a little later than I would expect. This has the effect of feeling like there is a hitch in the timing.

With the pump, that little extra delay took up that "extra" time and many of the stations seemed to flow a little more smoothly than normal. On the true pairs, I just had to work a wee bit faster than normal, but I never felt I was at a disadvantage.

Regarding your quote... I take it that Misseldine was never in the Field Artillery (or deer hunting on public land )?

 

[HSMITH]

Trapper, unless targets are on VERY close and similar flight paths I will even drop the gun out of the pocket and remount to shoot the second target in true pairs. I know exactly what you mean and why you do it. EVERY single good shooter I have seen will either relax completely for a fraction of a second while computing the firing solution for the second target or drop the gun out of the pocket if just slightly. Some guys are wrapped pretty tight and it is hard to see, but I believe to a man it happens. I had no idea I did it nor did I ever even think about it until a guy I had not shot with in a couple years went out shooting with me and commented on it. I started to replay the shots in my mind and sure enough, I do it quite a lot. Even do it on some skeet targets like the pairs at #2 and #6 sometimes.

Guess that could be another question: How many of you can replay a round in your head? Can you jump stations and still play the shots? You could bring up any shot at any station on the course and I will be able to play it back in my mind unless just a simple blast and move on target. I can now sit here and play back good shots and bad shots that have stuck in my mind, I can remember and playback the lead and "sight picture" of birds I shot 5 or 6 years ago..... Thought it was kinda weird until I started listening to professional golfers, to a man they can do it remembering wind, yardage, uphill, sidehill etc. Maybe it is just being in "tune" with the game you play?

 

[sm]

TR, H,
It seems we are on the same page. I know when I first started shooting , I was afraid I would be too slow in relation to the speed of targets or game. Oh, I kept hearing "smooth first, speed will come". I also learned by practice and observation those targets "seemed" to be slower, and I "had more time". You know what I mean. If I haven't been out in bit, I will simply observe, let my human computer get re-set and then when I actually hit the field I'm better prepared.

Yes I too believe in that "timing", I too will drop out of the pocket and re-aquire.

Yes I can replay stations. I know I have gotten into a slump, maybe L4 for instance. Advised to stop and quit forcing. Play a mind pic of what I remembered what a hit was. I also have to emind myself to quit thinking and let the human computer do what it is designed to do. When I think, I mess things up. When in a slump, I do not call for target, I just tell them to pull at whim.

My good buddy and pard went through a bad time with L5, I mean really bad time. I had to quit watching him on L5 for fear I would emulate a bad shot.

Now in trying to get him worked out of this slump ( really bad case) I pulled at my whim, but could not watch ( I could tell or hear if he hit it )

Watching better shooters, smooth, and perhaps breaking more quickly than I helped...and I stole that from them. I replayed their sucess in my mind to aid me. One of the tools I used to improve .

Good discussion, I appreciate the sharing and learning. Seems like a common thread that we all share.

 

[TrapperReady]

HSMITH - My recollection of many things is pretty fuzzy. Most of my neighbors have had to introduce themselves 5 or 6 times before their names would stick. However, I can remember excruciating detail about many shots. Certain birds, or certain targets just seem to stick there. Most often it's either the painful misses or the particularly nice (or unexpected) hits that really stick out.

I do tend to replay rounds in my head extensively -- typically until the next time I hit the range. The one exception to this is when shooting trap. Then, I really try to focus only on the upcoming clay. I try very hard to simply discard everything that has happened prior to calling for that bird. There have been times that I've hit the end of a round and had to ask the trapper what my score was... after running a straight!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Looks like we struck a mother lode of info on this one. A coupla things...

For some years, I was a semi pro guitar player, despite having little talent. I got fairtomiddlin' by sheer committment, practicing up to 8 hours a day. Edison said "Genius was 2% inspiration, 98% perspiration". I did the sweating, and lots of folks liked my playing.

Same here, I've average co-ordination and reaction times, basically getting good with a shotgun by toughing it out and paying lots of dues. I shoot well when I shoot a lot.

Norton, good start. You need your own shotgun, and maybe a custom stock. That 870 is a good one to "Borrow".

H, a quarter million rounds in the last decade kinda obscures the question of whether you have natural talent.

And I've a theory about low gun and fluidity, but I want to work on it a bit before dragging it into the light.

TR, I did very little premounting until I got into trap 3 years ago. I shoot better now than ever, low gun or premounted.

I think I'd swap a paycheck for a chance to get all the respondents on this thread onto the same range at the same time. What a think tank!

 

[P95Carry]

I think I'd swap a paycheck for a chance to get all the respondents on this thread onto the same range at the same time. What a think tank!

I think I ought to be the one to lose the paycheck! Probably the least experienced of all you guys and oh my - could i ever learn some stuff.

One other point that was made was regarding speed ... now on doubles I still usually feel ''rushed'' .... probably get say the H5 and then get all screwed up feeling a rush to get onto L5 before it's gone .... often missing.

One guy .. an ''old hand'' I admit .. he not only dismounts but ... hits the damn birds quicker I think than anyone else . I mean ... out comes bird . BAM! So quick I can only assume he is more shooting from memory than having to see it! Maybe that is where countless k's of rounds and practice really come in ..... ''knowing'' where the bird will be.

Once again ... wow! Great thread,

 

[romulus]

I've seen natural ability first hand. The fourteen year old son of a friend. The two papas were attempting to bust clays from a handheld thrower and were pathetic. The kid, from low mount, never missed, and seemed totally comfortable...graceful swing, follow through, dead on accurate. He never had instruction except what the papas gave him on the spot...

 

[DragonRider]

Speaking from the point of natural ability. The first time I went out in November of 01 and shot trap, I had never shot a shotgun, and only a handgun 3-4 times, a rifle once. I just watched a few mins and got what they were doing. I went out with the intent to hit the target and proceded to get a 18/25 and then a 19/25 beating the guy who took me. I made my first shot and missed my next three, real quick I learned the control and relaxing needs of clay sports which was easy for me to find due to my prior sports.

Speaking of myself, I learn greatly from watching and reading stuff. I am cotemplating taking a lesson over break to see what I need improvement on verse what I have identified on my own.

Now I think I have taken my natural ablitily and need to practice.

 

[Kingcreek]

Until now, I don't believe I've ever given any thought to my technique or style of shotgunning. I just do it and it works. I too can replay many shots in my mind's eye and this thread has prompted me to analyze my own action sequence for the first time. I can recall many shots that were noteworthy for one reason or another, esp shots on game birds.
I stayed out of the thread on snap shooting (thankfully) but depending on the definition used, I would consider myself a "modified snap shooter". I don't rush the shot but I use the time after the flush to analize the background and surroundings and also the shot opportunities for other hunters. If it's my shot and the shot zone is safe the shot happens very quickly. The low mount gives me lots of heads-up visual time wether hunting or shooting clay targets.
I'm looking forward more discussion here of mounting, shooting styles and technique, and fluidity.

 

[Dave McCracken]

My shotgunning kinda evolved over the years, and I really didn't start analyzing things and working on improving my form until I was in my 30s. Then, it was one small step at a time. Good form and performance is in part, the elimination of small mistakes, as Gene Hill puts it.

The shotgunner I wrote about undoubtedly has natural ability. Broken down, that means he's got decent eye hand co-ordination, even if mixed dominance, good depth perception, good timing, and what else?

An old Shotgun Sports magazine had an article and interview with Dan Carlisle. He's been on a few Olympic teams, IIRC, won some clays Chamionships, and has a name in the trap community. These days he teaches. The article mentions him taking one shot with each shotgun brought by a group of students and hitting all the clays.

IOW, his ability and experience made it possible to ignore the niceties of fit.

Those of us not so gifted and trained need to muddle along as best we can. Working on our form, fit and practicing are our tools for improvement.