Navy Sailors Trade Sea Legs For M-16s

[280PLUS]

Miami Herald
April 24, 2006

Navy Sailors Trade Sea Legs For M-16s

As part of a Department of Defense effort to coalesce the four braches of the military to form a larger and more unified ground force in Iraq and Afghanistan, Navy sailors are training with the Army to prepare themselves for land combat.

By Susanne M. Schafer, Associated Press

FORT JACKSON, S.C. - Navy sailors are trading their sea legs for dry land combat skills to help them survive in war zones, and the training is coming from an unusual place -- the Army.

The Navy is sending thousands of men and women to Iraq and Afghanistan to relieve pressure on Army and Marine ground forces, some of whom have faced repeated deployments to the region.

''Hit the ground and brace yourself with your weapon!'' Army senior drill instructor Warren Brown yelled at a dozen Navy trainees slithering across a mud-soaked field. ``Look around, pick yourself up and go! You're under fire!''

Thankful

After struggling up from the mud with her M-16 in hand, Petty Officer 2nd Class Jade Permenter acknowledged Brown's instructions to keep her head and butt down might save her life someday.

''This is excellent training, really. It will be very helpful. I'm headed to Iraq. I need this,'' said the 34-year-old reservist nurse from Columbus, Ohio.

Petty Officer 3rd Class Waheed Sahraie, 24, said he volunteered for the training before heading to Iraq.

''Personally, I was motivated by 9/11,'' said Sahraie, of Slate Hill, N.Y. ``But I think we're all doing this to ensure that our fellow soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines come home safely.''

Up to 10,000 sailors are expected to come through Fort Jackson during the coming months, said Cmdr. Kevin Aandahl, spokesman for the Navy's Education and Training Command in Pensacola.

While the Navy is closely tied to the Marines Corps, the Marines' training bases didn't have the facilities to provide combat training for thousands of sailors in a short time, Aandahl said.

That led the Navy to single out Fort Jackson, the Army's largest training base.

The training is an opportunity to blend services -- part of the Pentagon's move toward ''jointness,'' or getting the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps to cooperate and drop duplicative services, officials said.

''This is very much the way the Department of Defense is going, all four services are learning to work together,'' said Army Lt. Col. Doug Snyder, who is in charge of the training program.

``It's sharing of responsibilities, and no more of `This is my lane, stay out of it.'''

So far, about 1,200 sailors have gone through the intense, two-week course crammed with basics such as learning to fire M-16 rifles, toss hand grenades and conduct house-to-house patrols while weighted down with body armor -- skills not called for aboard ships.

''It's not about being Army or Navy anymore. The name of the game is staying alive,'' Brown said.

Different skills

Lt. Cmdr. Ed Moninger, 37, of Seattle, is a reservist headed to Kuwait to manage supplies.

''In the Navy, we're very technical, very specialized in our jobs, but the Army is much more physical,'' Moninger said.

Fort Jackson's commander, Brig. Gen. James Schwitters, said the course was designed to give sailors ``battlefield awareness.''

''It's how to survive, if they need to survive. It's knowing what to do, what action to take to support those around you and not to do things that would make a situation worse than it is,'' Schwitters said.

Still, while Army basic training usually lasts about nine weeks, the transplanted sailors are given only two weeks of training, putting in 12 to 16 hours a day.

And while fresh Army recruits spend two to three weeks training with their weapons, the sailors have just two or three days to acquaint themselves with a 9 mm pistol or M-16 rifle.

''It's like putting a fire hose in your mouth,'' said Snyder. ``It's remarkable what we are putting these sailors through.''

 

[sturmruger]

Sounds like a good idea to me. My cousin is in the Navy stationed over there somewhere I know he isn't anywhere close to any water I know he went through some training before he got sent over.

 

[armoredman]

Dayum, wish I had gone in now, instead of 20 years ago. Our naval marksmanship training in boot camp consisted of 5 rounds out of a Colt Ace 22, without even checking where I shot.
But, then I might have missed playing with the M14, a fantastic rifle...

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

LOL -


So, is the gubmint going to keep spreading their lies about not meeting their recruitment goals?


People fall victim to the military lowering their recruitment goals right before the reports are released in order to save face. This way, the claim of not meeting them cannot be made.


Let's see, we've sent a domestic military force to fight overseas indefinately, and now the squids are going into land combat. Jeesh. Sounds desperate to me. Consider all the stop-loss orders too. I have a friend who was an MP in the Airforce, they put him in a combat role too. What's next? The mess hall cook?


But no, recruitment goals are being met and American youth are more than willing to "defend" their nation in Iraq.

 

[GoRon]

People fall victim to the military lowering their recruitment goals right before the reports are released in order to save face. This way, the claim of not meeting them cannot be made.

Do you have a reference for that?

I am not saying it isn't true I would just like to see the facts.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Sounds like a re-vamp of the "shore party" from the good old days of wooden ships and iron men.

I think this is a great idea. In the last 30 years or so, the Navy slowly became about as combat oriented as the Air Force. In 2002 and 2003 I had met a few NROTC candidates who were shocked to realize that they might get deployed to a war zone and might have to kill somebody :banghead:

This is by no means an indcation of the majority of men and women in the Navy, but it shows that at least some people thought "hey, it's the Navy (Air Force, Army Reserves, etc.) I wont be in any danger." It's the MILITARY people! you are, first and formost, warriors. You will be sent places, kill people, and possibly die on the orders of the President and if you can't cope with that then mabey this isn't the carreer for you.

Sorry, Rant=off.

 

[Correia]

They should fill those numbers pretty quick, just from all of the sailors who washed out of BUDS. (hey, the Navy likes to brag about the drop out rate right?)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The training is an opportunity to blend services -- part of the Pentagon's move toward ''jointness,'' or getting the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps to cooperate and drop duplicative services, officials said.

??????

Army guys carry rifles and shoot people.

Navy guys drive boats.

Where's the "duplicative services" they want to drop? Sounds to me like they are creating duplicative services, not eliminating them.

 

[MrTwigg]

This is not a good thing

The Navy lives and works aboard ship. The only branch of the Navy even remotely qualified would be the Seabees (Construction Battalions). These are the guys who go in and build the bases everyone else works out of. I was in the Seabees and we had plenty of defensive unit training.

That's defensive training. We had damm little offensive training.

These people will be completely out of their element and do not possess the mind set for this. I have no doubt they all are very good at what they do, but land combat in not one of those things ! Even the SEALs are not trained or equipped for extensive land combat. That's what the Army does.

Please don't get me wrong here I am NOT putting the Navy down but they are not trained for land based combat and two weeks of "Intensive Training" will not give them the proper skills necessary to survive. :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Kodiaz]

Well let's see how this affects the Navy's recruiting numbers. I hear a sucking sound.

 

[ugaarguy]

I think this is a great idea. In the last 30 years or so, the Navy slowly became about as combat oriented as the Air Force. In 2002 and 2003 I had met a few NROTC candidates who were shocked to realize that they might get deployed to a war zone and might have to kill somebody

I take offense to that. How about you Google what Air Force Air Control Squadrons, Combat Communications Squadrons, Combat Weathermen, Combat Controllers, Pararescue Jumpers (PJs), and Tactical Air Control Parties (TACPs) do? While you're at it look into the history of why Air Force Security Forces wear black berets. I'll give you that overall the Air Force focuses on Air Combat, as we should, but most people are shocked at the number of ground oriented Airmen we have. By the way I'll be heading into the field soon for one of multiple yearly exercises and I'll be carry an M-16, chem gear, ruck sack, and all the other goodies.

 

[hank327]

I don't think these Navy folks are going to be sent out on combat patrols, or used in any other infantry missions. It looks like that they are service and support folks and that they will be doing those jobs in Iraq and Kuwait. This training is just so they will know how to defend themselves in case they are caught in an attack.

 

[Boats]

Whatever is being "well intended" Naval personnel are indeed being slammed in this thread, and I take exception to it.

Perhaps my perspective is skewed by actually doing rather similar training in the mid-80s, but there has always been a shore component to serving in the Navy. On larger ships and shore commands, tight security and potential defensive actions are handled by the Marine Corps in the main.

Every damn where else, the sailors do it for themselves. On my destroyer, we were the ship's security force, its reaction force, its shore party, and we routinely boarded other vessels whilst armed to the teeth.

The Marines trained us up on the shooting, but it was the 25th ID at Schofield who we did our training with. Did it qualify us to mount offensive operations? No, but then again, that is not what was being done in the immediate story either.

Again, I do not know about current practice, but when I was in, our ship's reaction force was all volunteer and was over-volunteered for. There is nothing real special about death by rifle or explosion when one could be killed at sea in rather horrific ways already. I routinely handled weapons and boarded strange ships in my day. Fought with Iranians sporting 12.7mm machine gun and the like too. The closest I came to getting killed is when a wire cable under 36,000 pounds of strain, parted and snapped an underway refuelling nozzle and hose at us on the forward torpedo deck. I'd put that fear up against anyone else's hair raiser.

Or is it now the case that if one isn't 11B or some snake eater, they aren't a player?

If anything, the current developments in the Navy are a re-establishment of the way the Navy fought with its first Muslim extremist foes. On the ground. God Bless and more power to them.

 

[Biker]

The good new is, a local recruiter recently told me that the recruitment age will be moved up to 43 by early summer.
By 2008, Geritol will be included in the MREs and Viagra will be issued to all on weekend passes during Basic.
Biker

 

[Cosmoline]

the sailors have just two or three days to acquaint themselves with a 9 mm pistol or M-16 rifle.

Nothing is good about that. Esp. considering the fact that there is no "rear" in Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[Beachmaster]

Army guys carry rifles and shoot people.
Navy guys drive boats.

Actually, the ARMY has MORE BOATS than the Navy does! from small rubber crafts to large ocean going LCUs, the ARMY has way more boats!

The Navy lives and works aboard ship. The only branch of the Navy even remotely qualified would be the Seabees (Construction Battalions). These are the guys who go in and build the bases everyone else works out of. I was in the Seabees and we had plenty of defensive unit training.

That's defensive training. We had damm little offensive training.

These people will be completely out of their element and do not possess the mind set for this. I have no doubt they all are very good at what they do, but land combat in not one of those things ! Even the SEALs are not trained or equipped for extensive land combat. That's what the Army does.

The Navy always has had an extensive, but often not advertised, presence on shore. In addition to the Sea Bees, (who are trained to fight defensivly as pointed out, but not offensivly as THAT IS NOT THEIR MISSON!) there are many units in the Navy who have been or are active in land warfare.

Of course, the first that comes to everyones mind is the SEALS. BUT, in addition to Seal teams, there are many more units that have "OTHER THAN SHIP" combat training.

BEACHMASTER UNITS are made up of sailors who "Go in with the Marines" and take charge of the landing areas from the surf zone (where the ocean breaks into waves) to about 100 yards ashore. During the assault, they provide foreward observing for Naval gunfire, forward observing for Navy and Marine airstrikes, comand and control functions, and communications. Their members are trained to fight alonside the Marines. After the landing area is controlled, Beachmasters set up prisoner of war camps as well as field medical stations. I served in a Beachmaster unit and received lots of infantry training (but from the Marines, not army)

Some NAVAL BOAT UNITS have combat trained personel as well. Assault Boat Units, Inshore Boat units, Special boat units, and even Phib CB Boat units (Amphibious Construction Battalions who specialize in water related construction like causways and docks) recieve land warfare training.

Naval EOD units serve in combat and recieve training. Before the 80's EOD was a part of the SEAL units, but since has been split into a seperate Bomb Squad / EOD area. Many EOD units in Iraq and Afganistan are Navy units. (and some are Air Force)

Naval Security Detachments. These folks are trained to provide security at forward bases, medical units, etc. While the Marines are usually placed in the position of guarding naval assets in combat areas, Navy Personnel also do it (usually under the direction of a few Marine leaders)

Ships Boarding Parties / Shore Parties. Depending on the command and type of ship, many sailors are trained in land warfare. The Navy has new small Litoral ships (Ships designed to operate in shallower areas) that fullfill various missions with limited crews. Also, many Amphibious ships train some folks in land warfare. These folks many be assigned to the ships boats, search and rescue, or liason duties with the Army or Airforce.

Naval Corpsman serve with the Marines and train with Marine infantry units. while their mission is not to fight, they still recive training.

The Navy is more than just ships!

 

[BIGJACK]

When I was in the Navy basic trainning, some 50 years ago we carried 1903 springfields every minute of the day and slept with it at night, leared the 16 count manuel of arms, and drilled with it. We spent several days on the fireing range with the Marines. We shot M1, carbine, thompson and the 45.
Also there was a special services group, I believe it was called NEGDEF (Naval Emergency Ground Defense Force) specially trained for ground services. Also you might look at the number of Navy personel who served on the ground in V N.
When they flipped me over into the Marine Corps they gave me 3 weeks at Paris Island and said go get um and I did OK.

 

[ugaarguy]

I'd like to clarify that I was in no way slamming sailors in my previous post on this thread. I was simply defending myself and my fellow Airmen who are ground combat ready. No, we are not trained to go door to door searching houses like the Army and Marines are. However you better bet than in an Air Control Squadron - ACS - we are trained to set up and maintain site defense if called upon to do so. We're basically an AWACS on the ground in modular shelters with radars hooked up to them. When I enlisted I never thought I'd be digging DFPs (defensive fighting positions aka fox holes), learning to operate as part of a threat response "rover" team, defending an ECP (entry control point) or training in convoy counter ambush techniques. Well I've done all that and more. Thankfully in Iraq we were on an Air Base within a large Army base and weren't called upon to use those skills. We did have a rocket land within several yards of us right before we processed the passenger terminal out of Iraq and by the grace of God it was a dud.

 

[Fu-man Shoe]

Bah.

Sure, there's some groundpounder type jobs in the navy.

But as an AD navy puke myself, let me tell you...they are
few and far between in the actual fleet, and those guys
get all the training they need.

What this article is talking about is taking some of the sad
sacks from here and there, giving them a little bit of run and
gun training, and then sticking them on guard duty at some
godforsaken camp x-ray in Kandahar or somewhere equally
bad.

This has been going on for close to a year now.

They're taking a lot of the people on shore duty, and giving
them "temporary duty assignment" orders for 1 year rotations
in Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan and the United Arab Emirates.

At this point, it's primarily senior people (E6 and above) with
some sort of law enforcement rating or NEC. (Those guys need
less training, you see).

 

[Autolycus]

Sounds like someone has been lying to the US about meeting that recruiting quota. I hear they have no problem and I hear they are having trouble. Which is it?

The article suggest that perhaps the Air Force will see an upswing in recruting numbers.

 

[Old Dog]

Nothing new here. Always been Navy boots on the ground over there, just not in so many numbers before. Lots of us got to go over and spend quite a bit of time in desert cammies, and not just corpsmen or SEALs.
Mr Twigg said:

These people will be completely out of their element and do not possess the mind set for this. I have no doubt they all are very good at what they do, but land combat in not one of those things ! Even the SEALs are not trained or equipped for extensive land combat.

And in fact, I do take offense to this. I spent some time over there ... totalling almost eighteen months ... And ... yep, I was active duty USN.

Mr Twigg, you're apparently basing your opinion on the pre-1990s Navy. I take offense to this statement in particular:

I am NOT putting the Navy down but they are not trained for land based combat and two weeks of "Intensive Training" will not give them the proper skills necessary to survive.

Permit me to observe: hogwash.

Thank you, Beachmaster, for providing a bit of substance to this thread. Most have little or no idea of what elements the Navy is made up of, nor do they understand that most Navy billets are actually shore, staff, squadron or other type of mobile unit, rather than strictly shipboard. And few understand (particularly those who've been away from the Navy for the past ten years or so) just how much our weapons and combat training has advanced.

 

[Cosmoline]

Sure, but a few days of rifle training and then into the sand box? I hope they got more than that. I would want a solid month of concentrated small arms training before setting foot there. The bullets are flying, and it's getting worse by the day. A few days is enough to get some holes more or less in the right place on a target, but that's about it.

 

[molonlabe]

Whatever is being "well intended" Naval personnel are indeed being slammed in this thread, and I take exception to it.

Me too. And the people slamming do not know what they are talking about. They will perform and they will excel. They proved it in Vietnam in countless engagements. Ever here of swift boats? How about corpsman? How about our air crewmen or pilots or combat photographers?

I work with some Ex navy and marine people who constantly are at each other. I learned a long time ago that in combat we are all brothers and respect all in uniform.

Maybe people should browse this before passing judgement.
http://www.medalofhonor.com/recipients/index.htm

 

[1911 guy]

NMCB-23 and NMCB-7

I'm a civillian now, but spent some time as a SeaBee. Some of our specialized training was administered by the Marines who are a bit preoccupied with being the tip of the spear at the moment, so it seems the Army is stepping up.

As for Navy jobs that include handling a weapon and some extent of this "battlefield awareness" mentioned in the article, here's the ones I can remember:
SeaBees (I did NMCB 23 and NMCB 7)
Special Boat Units
Master at Arms
Boarding and Interdiction Party
Ships Defense Force (I did CVN-70 and CV-67)
SEALs
EOD
Ordnancemen
Parachute Riggers (they're responsible for the handguns in flight gear)

I'm sure there's more. So it's nothing new, just the Army part. As for the people involved being no-loads, probably not. The "sad sacks" get put in a quiet corner desk somewhere and told to be seen and not heard. Unless things have changed in the Club Med the Navy has become.

 

[MCgunner]

I know a fellow who joined the Navy to keep from being drafted into the army during the Vietnam war. He spent his service cruising on the "Enterprise" and kissin' some fat guy's belly when he crossed the equator or some such. Weird people in the Navy.

Now, I'm picturin' him swabbin' the floors in his blissful tour and an officer tells him he's going to have to be a ground pounder with an M16... ROFLMAO I guess you'd have to know this guy to get the full effect...