Navy Sailors Trade Sea Legs For M-16s

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Warning! Briefly OT.

It's called Wog Day. Crossing the equator has a maritime significance going back to the Phoenecians. I'm not sure they had the same "baby kissin'" (fat guy's belly) as we do, but the tradition is old. If you've never crossed the line, you're a Pollywog (wog) and once you do cross, you're a Shellback. I have the honor of being a Golden Shellback, intersecting the equator and the International Date Line. The U.S. Navy, as well as a few other fleets, put enough stock in being a Shellback that it's a Service Record entry.
 
Use Army for Land War in Asia.
Use Marines for Land War in Asia.
Use Air Force for Land War in Asia.
Use...Navy...for Land War in Asia.

Hmm.

Guess they don't study anything General Douglas MacArthur said anymore...

And two or three days to aquaint themselves with "either a 9mm pistol or an M16"...?
I sincerely hope they let the sailors get in some target practice over the rail at a towed target every other day or so, then, or that's a suicide order to send them in anyplace. I have a Taurus PT92, which is a pretty close equivalent to the service pistol, and it sure took me more than three days to get "good" with it!
 
Boats,

I, too, take exception to the bashing of the Navy in this thread.

It is easy to slam what you do not know anything about. In 1990, I gladly traded flightdeck duty on the USS Midway for a shore detachment in the desert. The choice was incredibly easy, and I had to fight to get the slot.

Saying that the Navy is not combat ready is incredibly ignorant. The Navy has always been the first to respond, showing up on the horizon while the Army was still packing their bags in the States. A warship at sea is always in combat mode. Always. The tension never lets up. The Midway never went below Xray on it's fittings, even while in port. Nine month cruises were the norm. The flightdeck is the second most dangerous place in the world to work, second only to the battlefield itself. It's twelve long hours of working in the face of sudden death if you let your guard down an inch. Day in, day out. 12 on 12 off. We went to sea with a ready supply of coffins. We never had a cruise without losing someone. Every cruisebook has a In Memorium list in the back, and those are not fat old Chiefs having heart attacks. Those are young men who died to damned soon serving their country. In peace and in war. While soldiers and Marines played war games in the States during the 1980s, sailors died at sea. Between 1991 and 2001 it was the US Navy enforcing the no fly zones. It was the US Navy patroling the Persian Gulf enforcing embargos. But enough about that......Men die at sea. There are a thousand ways to die at sea if you let your guard down just a bit. Warships are not the Carnival Cruise Line. That's why the Navy keeps the Marines and soldiers contained when we give them a ride. They are payload, and we don't want them to die on the way.

Yeah, I traded that for some desert cammies in 1990. It was a welcome relief from working the flight deck.
Every Marine is a rifleman? Every Sailor is a firefighter.
I've fought fires at sea. I've cooled ordnance. I've jettisoned ordnance. I've bagged crispy critters. I've eaten on mess decks that stank of burned human flesh for two months after they were used as Mass Medical. If I were given the choice of patroling Iraq or flighting a major fire at sea today, I would chose Iraq. Give me an IED on a highway any day.

For all of the soldiers and Marines who have been kicking ass over the past three years, thank you for your service. I do not mean to negate it. It does not give you the right to talk trash about the men who keep your air support coming when you need it most, or even those who get your wounded out of harm's way.

Civilians who have never served and who want to talk trash about any branch have no credibility whatsoever.

Rant mode off. :fire:
 
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I only saw a small snip on the news about the Navy being trained for "ground pounding" duties. From what I saw, I figured that they would be utilized as "augmentees" to bolster the Marine and Army personnel, and they will, most likely, be assigned to duties that won't be "front-line" combat.

This type of "augmentee" training MAY eventually include USAF personnel that aren't already assigned to "ground pounding" duties.

The USN, USMC, US Army and USAF are ALL "soldiers", whether they like it or not! So are the ACTIVE duty and RESERVE forces! All branches of military service are VOLUNTEERS! In war time, even cooks and administrative personnel MIGHT be required to "pound the ground"!

I was a USAF "ground pounder" in Vietnam. Back in 1967-1968, no one knew what a USAF Combat Control Team member did. Our motto of, "First in, last out" didn't spell out our duties. I went through training that was similar to the Army Special Forces, Marine Force Recon, and Navy SEAL's. The Army OPENLY advertised their "Green Beret" forces, and the Navy often bragged about their SEAL teams.
The Marines were somewhat subdued about their Force Recon units, but everyone just figured that they were "deadly". The USAF Combat Control Team....how many times did I hear, "Oh, you're a PJ!" (Para-rescue)! Kind of difficult to explain that the CCT went in BEFORE the PJ's went into action, and didn't leave until the PJ's were safely extracted! As a USAF enlistee, I never wiped even one wing, nor was I ever assigned "at the rear with the gear"!

This may be QUITE unpopular, but my hat is tipped to the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, for having "streamlined" our military forces! This recent Navy "ground pounder" training should have been implemented YEARS ago!
 
To see photos of the training in question, go to this page:
http://www.navy.mil/view_photos_top.asp

and search "Fort Jackson" in the search box.

this picture is pretty cool:
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=33152

You'll see a lot of photos of what the Navy guys are doing.

Anybody who has problems with this needs to chill out. As this is Individual Augmentee training, most of these sailors are specialists in something the military needs over there, from law to explosive ordinance disposal. They aren't going to be leading combat patrols most likely.

This article, directly from the Navy, says the sailors live with their weapons....that is a lot better than the Miami Times article saying they only have a few days to use them.

Soldiers Provide Combat Skills Training for Sailors Headed to War Zones
Story Number: NNS060414-18
Release Date: 4/15/2006 3:00:00 PM



By Journalist 1st Class (SW/AW) John Osborne, Naval Personnel Development Command Public Affairs

FORT JACKSON, S.C. (NNS) -- Sailors heading to assignments in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, and the Horn of Africa are getting the combat skills training they need from Soldiers in a unique joint training initiative taking place at Fort Jackson, S.C.

This training is for Sailors ranging in rank from E-3 to O-6 who have received Individual Augmentee (IA) orders to support the U.S. Army in combat zones around the world. Prior to going overseas, all Navy IAs participate in a two-week training course required by the in-theater Coalition Forces Land Component at McCrady Training Site, part of Fort Jackson, S.C., for combat survival skills training in convoy operations, forward operating base force protection, security procedures and urban combat operations.

"The Navy approached the Army to provide this theater-specific individual readiness training for Sailors being sent into combat zones," said Army Lt. Col. Douglas Snyder, commander of Task Force Marshall (TFM), which designed and executes the training program. "Sailors are not used to this type of operation, and we hope this training prepares them for what may await them when they get into theater.”

Upon arrival for training, IAs are immediately immersed in the Army atmosphere. Desert camouflage uniforms are issued along with body armor, Kevlar helmet and small arms weaponry. It is a vastly different ensemble from what they received as recruits when they entered the Navy, but this is also vastly different training than Sailors are used to encountering. Nevertheless, according to Cmdr. Eduardo Martinez, officer in charge, Navy Individual Augmentee Combat Training Course, the Sailors are responding well.

“This is like no other school in the entire Navy,” said Martinez, who added that he is thankful for the opportunity to enable Sailors to contribute to front-line positions in the war. “Each day is used to maximize the potential of the individual and honing skills that will make them productive in a combat environment. The Sailors welcome the opportunity to relieve their predecessors on time and excel in the mission.”

A significant challenge for most Sailors is becoming familiar, comfortable and proficient with the various weapons they will use in theater. This familiarization program, called weapons immersion, runs for several days and emphasizes basic weapons concepts, proper shooting techniques and safety principles.

Sailors “live” with their weapons, either the M-16A2 or the 9mm pistol. They also receive familiarization training on hand grenades, the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), M240B machine gun, M19 grenade launcher and the fixed-position M2 .50 caliber machine gun.

“I got a lot out of it and more than I ever thought I would,” former IA student, Personnel Specialist 2nd Cass Annaiza Chandler said of the weapons training. “It was an excellent experience. We were well taught, and I feel confident with it.”

The mentoring and instructor responsibilities for the IA program fall on Army drill sergeants, many of whom have already done one or more tours of duty in the war on terrorism. Their primary job in regard to the Sailors is to put them in the mindset of a Soldier, so in addition to providing weapons training, the drill instructors push the Sailors to organize and operate as teams in patrol techniques, communications, land navigation, first aid, medical evacuation and urban assault scenarios.

“The Navy wanted their personnel to experience more realistic and intense training before being deployed, including more convoy and operational scenarios,” Snyder said. "We are evolving the course on the run because we know there is an urgent need for these Sailors, but we want them trained properly and as thoroughly as we can within the time frame we have been given. This is a several-week program compressed into two weeks."

Martinez said that the Army instructors have done an excellent job of establishing a great working relationship with the Sailors and imparting their knowledge gained through experience.

“I have listened to the students and heard the drill instructors conduct the training and the connectivity, and interaction could not be higher,” he said. “The secret is that the student cannot come in with a negative attitude. They must be open to receiving training from the instructors, some of whom impart considerable knowledge due to their in theater experience.”

The initial reaction to the training and its pace from Sailors has been positive. Former student, Capt. Chris Bott, senior officer to go through the training, said he was impressed with the program.

“This is some of the best training I've received in the military to prepare us for the worse case," he said.

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=23164

BSR
 
No offense intended here OldDog

You are the exception. ...and no, this is not my opinion but my observation but I will conceed this is based on the pre-1990's Navy.

I checked the USN website for my old unit and there is a gap in the history from 1968 to 1990, so for twenty two years one could presume nothing significant happened.

I have a problen with that. We built secure fenceing for the US Naval magazing on Guam while helping with the cleanup from supertyphoon Pamela.
We built an artifical reservoir in Rota, spain. We provided equipment and assistance in putting out wildfires in Califorina when we were stateside. We also sent details to numerous other places.

I am NOT bashing the Navy! :banghead: Just voicing an observation, based on what I have seen and experienced firsthand. Yeah, I forgot about the Beachmasters, then again I never set foot on a ship. I always felt more like I was in the Army except for the dress blues hanging in my locker.

Todays Navy might be a different story but two weeks with a weapon is not going to qualify you for combat or make you an expert in it's use. We trained constantly and I qualified as expert on the M16A1 but it took me two years to get to that level.

The USMC Gunnery Sargent assigned to my battalion gave us the greatest compliment a Marine could ever give. He said he would go to war with us.

I did not intend to imply the Navy was not combat ready. However Extended land-based combat is not their mission.
 
I just don't understand why they would send the Navy to train with the Army. They already have a sub-department that specializes in combat (the Marines), and they already have an avenue of approach for that training in the Navy Corpsman school.

Why job it out to the Army? That doesn't make sense.

Then again, how many times have I awoken in some god forsaken place in the Marines and uttered those exact same words...
 
I also didn't mean to bash the Navy or the Air Force in my post, but was simply stating what I had observed. While in college I was very close with many people in the NROTC unit(both OCs and Enlisted) because my roommate (and best friend was in the Marine ROTC). I would work out with the Marines, go drinking with the Chiefs, and (on occasion) would see one of the Lieutenants at the punk shows.

What I posted about people thinking that the Navy and the Air Force were safe from combat was based on the statements of some of the students (now officers) that were in both the Navy and Air Force ROTC. I know that there are hard-fighting members of both the Navy and the Air Force, but these days, many civilians consider it akin to joining the Peace Corps.

It is a fraudulent assumption, but it is still how many people see it and think it is good that the services do everything to try and divorce themselves from that image. The last thing we need is people joining the military who think like this:
"I don't think that I could bring myself to kill anybody" [Acctual quote from a now US Naval officer]
 
I know that there are hard-fighting members of both the Navy and the Air Force, but these days, many civilians consider it akin to joining the Peace Corps.

I find that hard to believe...or that they'd stay in instead of washing out.
I would think they would catch on quick that unless you stay stateside, any AF base can become a combat zone if the battle comes to it, an AF convoy is subject to the same attacks an Army convoy is, and any pilot is one SAM or catastrophic malfunction away from being alone in hostile territory.

As for the Navy, if they're deployed, they're often riding around in metal objects full of stuff that can burn and explode, on one of the harshest, most unforgiving can-kill-you-in-seconds places on the planet...the ocean.

Hardly the peace corps. All the armed forces face their own brands of danger every day, I'd think. I just wish that if they're going to do this, that they give them a bit more training than that, or institute shipside practice time as well!

Seriously. How much logistics would it take for continued weapons proficiency training, and the larger ships could have a VR projections scenario training room like the ones they keep showing off on the news. They definitely have the room, and electricity to run it isn't an issue! Something like a carrier or large cruiser could have a mockup humvee with projection screens around it and CG imagery, or even a room with partition walls and popup hostile/friendlies targets for urban combat training. At least once a week, every sailor gets some sim time.

Why not?
 
by the way Ugaarguy, the navy has an airforce also. Matter of fact I was also attached to the that branch for a while as a plan captain ( F-11F and F-8U) and I recall that the navy and airfore "traded" pilots occasionally to sample each others trainning and very few air force "pilots" were able to quallify at landing on the carrier. They did however do ok on the 5000ft run way, after being use to the 10 to 15000 foot ones.:D
The only "bus-drivers" that I recall doing "ground duty" were those that got shot down.:eek:
Just joking, love all you guys, and dam glad its all behind me.:evil:
 
MrTwigg said - "I did not intend to imply the Navy was not combat ready. However Extended land-based combat is not their mission."

MrTwigg, extended land-based combat is not going to be the mission of the individual augmentees going through this training. You are correct that two weeks won't make them commandos but they don't need to be because that is most likely not the mission of these sailors.

BSR
 
I did an IA Deployment to the Gulf running on US Merchant Ships providing port and transit security... Was great duty, and fully appropriate for Navy personnel... Knew some folks who got sent to Kuwait for standard MP duties... also okay... I was an Army Guardsmen prior to my Navy service and I feel pretty comfortable with ITT and crawling around and weapons... I have a hard time picturing some of the folks on my base doing too much in a tactical environment with only 2 or 3 weeks of training, save for *some* seebeas, and other appropriate source ratings and occupations... as a security guy, we are drilled into the "ladder of force" of LE type mindsets, and therefore take quite a bit of re-acclimation to "rules of engagement"....
I think that the combat roles should stay in the combat realm, ie marines, army, etc... Let us guard prisoners, stand posts, base patrols, etc, but convoy ops? combat patrols? at least come up with an NEC and proper (8 weeks plus, weps and tactics) training to make sure that you arent sending a paperpusher, ship-mopper, airdale, etc out to get set up for failure...
 
I think it is the Army training the Navy in ground ops now, for the same reason they trained my ship's reaction force in 1987--they are bigger than the Corps and they tend to have the facilities reflecting that status. Even Marines go to the Army for some specialized cross training, particularly MOUT, and so I do not find it so shocking that the Army is doing the training.

In Hawaii, Schofield Barracks and the nearby Makua Military Reservation on the North Shore is the only real infantry post in the islands. The Marines had a presence at Pearl and an Air Station, but nothing like Makua.

One of the standout moments I remember from our training with the Army at Makua on Oahu was the compliment we received at the end. They said that we were among the quickest studies they had ever had over. It does turn out that most of the training one gets in the field, no matter the branch, is the training out of mistakes. The fewer basic mistakes made in the first place, the more productive the training usually is on the topics that really matter. If nothing else, the Navy is extremely detail oriented. We never botched the small stuff even when playing soldier, we just needed some basic experience.

We turned out to be top notch land navigators once we'd mastered the map topology. Turns out that we had, among our squid squad, quite the talent for accurate dead reckoning. It seems we were more trusting of the compass than many ground pounders are and weren't as reliant on landmarks or depending on seeing things that "should be right here" according to the map. We were apparently supposed to be ambushed in one exercise as our instructors and oppfor thought we'd pick an easier and more direct route to our objective, in part because it would be easier to navigate. If they knew anything about the Navy, they'd have known we never go straight anywhere unless it is a direct order. We managed a counter ambush on our eighth day in the field and were complimented accordingly.

Were we ready to supplant an infantry squad of the 25th ID? Not a chance. Could we bloody their noses in a fight? We were definitely capable of that after the first of my two go-arounds there at the Barracks. Could we have dispatched less organized or capable armed opposition than the Army, say boarding a ship and finding pirates or terrorists who were ready for a fight? I'd like to think so. We were even better the next time in 1988 if our MILES gear was any indication.

Small unit tactics are not rocket science. Much of it has been worked out through the decades and is actually "in the book." The hardest parts in practice are tactical improvisation in response to the unexpected or casualties, and picking up the jargon, handsigns, and weapon proficiency.

But face it, we used to turn raw draftees into serviceable platoon members. Motivated volunteer sailors, many with light weapons backgrounds in their own service already, are hardly substandard training material to be molded into ground pounders, even if the assignment is limited or temporary.

I knew how to shoot before I got into the Navy and so did most of my shipmates on the reaction force. Uncle Sam needed only to teach us how to perform as expected.

I find it amusing to this day when people are shocked when I tell them I spent parts of my enlistment as a sailor humping a ruck and a rifle without being a SEAL.
 
I take offense to that. How about you Google what Air Force Air Control Squadrons, Combat Communications Squadrons, Combat Weathermen, Combat Controllers, Pararescue Jumpers (PJs), and Tactical Air Control Parties (TACPs) do? While you're at it look into the history of why Air Force Security Forces wear black berets.
What percentage of the Air Force is that? That's like saying the Navy isn't a bunch of coffee swilling chubs because the Navy has the SEAL Teams.

As a former Squid myself, I like the idea of infantry training. Having fired no rounds in boot camp and only 45 (30 in M16, 15 in M9) in Field Med, I think it's important to better expose these guys to a situation that they could run into.

Particular NECs, like Enginemen, Gunner's Mates, and others are perfectly useful in some of these foreward bases, so knowing what the grunts do will be useful.
 
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