Nearly shot my wife!

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Why not take this type of scenario into consideration when buying/arranging furniture? Ok, paranioa again...

Just a suggestion, which follows the previous post about blind corners etc. Make your home "clearing friendly" or "intruder unfriendly".

I have a little rug rat that makes walking around a dark house really dangerous for intruders. :)
 
it even works when your fighting with your lovely bride over the color of paint to use on the kitchen wall.

Trust me, the color of paint ain't worth a fight. Just put what she wants up, and move on. :D

For less money than you might spend on a weekend out, a simple interior security system with cameras could be installed

Hadn't considered those, and as soon as we can get out of the hole my recent medical bills have put us in I'll look into it.

I have a little rug rat that makes walking around a dark house really dangerous for intruders. :)

I can see it now, "Yes really honey, I have to buy the Hot Wheels and Legos so I can secure the house." Yeah, being childless has its disadvantages. ;)

Clearing a house on your own is foolish. That's not my opinion. That's a stone cold fact

OK, I will grant that I'm not going to clear an unknown structure by myself. Heck, unless I have a stake in it I'm not going to clear an unknown structure at all. But, my house that I live in, and know where I know every stick of furniture, every nook and and every cranny? That I've walked and rehearsed the scenario countless times such that I can do it literally blind folded, and that I own? Well that one I'm going to clear. Sure the BGs have the advantage of being able to ambush, but I have negated that with knowledge and rehearsal. The issue here is that my wife doesn't share my need (well didn't) to know and practice these things.
 
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But, just in case I'd better go check the rest of the house. Fortunately having found the source of the noise I'm somewhat more relaxed because as I'm rounding the corner to the formal dining room the wife is coming towards me from the formal dinning room. Gun held loosely at her side. Scared the hell out of me, and I if I had still been keyed up I likely would have shot her at point blank range in the chest.

Okay, with less than adequate tact, get over it. You didn't almost shoot her. You didn't fire your gun. You didn't point the gun at her. You simply started the process of getting ready to fight, as well you should have because as you let your guard down and got snuck up on.

As it was my thumb was sweeping down the safety, and my finger was entering the trigger guard when I realized who it was and checked myself.
This is the way things are supposed to work. You should be patting yourself on the back because of your discipline, not being upset because of something that almost ended up being to a point where something back could happen.

FYI, unless you live in some sort of giant mansion, every shot inside your how with a pistol should be point blank.

So in retrospect, you didn't almost shoot your wife. You did almost get ready to be about to shoot your wife, but even then you didn't get far enough through the process such that if your gun had discharged that it was in a position to hit her. No sweat.
 
You didn't point the gun at her.

In the interest of full disclosure: Unfortunately not true. When I rounded the corner she was muzzle swept. I had the gun at high ready next to my chest with the muzzle slightly pointed down. She'd have been hit in lower sternum area even if I didn't raise the muzzle to level. Granted if I hadn't been in the garage she'd have never gotten out of the bedroom without me knowing, but as it was she was definitely someplace that she could have been shot. That is what scared me so badly.

But, I do appreciate your effort to make me feel better. I just wish it were deserved.
 
You have the freedom to do things unwise and risky...the firearm just makes it less so.


Or more so...

lpl
 
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But, just in case I'd better go check the rest of the house. Fortunately having found the source of the noise I'm somewhat more relaxed because as I'm rounding the corner to the formal dining room the wife is coming towards me from the formal dinning room. Gun held loosely at her side. Scared the hell out of me, and I if I had still been keyed up I likely would have shot her at point blank range in the chest.

OK, but suppose she had not recognized you or had been keyed up. She might have shot you thinking you were the bad guy you went looking for.

Suppose she was faster than you on the draw because you knew it was her but she did not know it was you?
 
Clearing a house on your own is foolish. That's not my opinion. That's a stone cold fact known by almost everyone (I'd say everyone, but exceptions prove the rule) who's been trained to do clearings - on a team - for a paycheck.

BG could have been anywhere in your garage. Behind a car, crouched in the corner, by the workbench, under the car, in the car, 10 feet to the right of his buddy, over by the ladder, etc. He has to do one thing - shoot you. You have to do the following: 1) locate source, 2) determine threat level (is it a neighbor borrowing a saw?), 3) aim, 4) shoot, 5) scan for another (are home invasions EVER a one-man deal?). You have an OODA loop, he has a job - shoot anybody who comes through THAT ONE DOOR!

If I hear a noise that's suspicious enough to send the wife and kids to the upstairs master bedroom, then it's suspicious enough for 5-0.

Here's my two choices: 1) huddle-up behind the bed with my family and wait for a BG to come through THAT ONE DOOR, or 2) enter the garage with weapon at low ready, get shot in the guts, blow my shot cuz the shock took me off my game, get disarmed, listen to two BG's party with my wife for the next hour while I bleed out, then explain things to St. Peter. I'll take door #1 thanks.

That lays it out succinctly--but not everyone starts out thinking like that.

I mentioned taking a gun and going after real danger in the house twice; fortunately I came out in one piece both times. In one instance I had to do that, in the other I did not.

I have not mentioned the couple of times I have taken a gun and gone to investigate a noise that turned out to be benign. Yes, I have done it--before I really thought about it. And frankly, I had to learn from the experts before I really tried to figure out for myself that it was a very poor tactic indeed. Why, I do not know.

But I could have figured out for myself, had I really tried.

As someone comes down the stairs in my house, he or she is exposed from the side, and then from the back and side. He or she is a ready target for anyone who might happen to be in any of a number of places.

As he or she comes into the foyer, the number of places a potential burglar or two might be waiting is multiplied several fold. It is highly unlikely that he or she could spot a person before that person could shoot, much less positively identify the target and fire effectively. Worse if there were two.

Then, depending upon which route is chosen, opportunities for ambush become even more abundant.

But I did that a couple of times over the years. It seemed to me to be the right thing at the time. What makes us do that? A false sense of invulnerability? Too much television? Lack of training? Lack of having thought it it through?

Fortunately, there was never anyone there. Never anyone to put me in danger, and never anyone for me to shoot by mistake.

What made me stop and think about it and change my tactics? Things like this--this from someone who used to teach the subject.

does it not matter that you know your own house, while a BG does not?
Not in the dark with your heart racing your vision tunneled your hands sweating and the BG crouched behind the comfy chair that isn't out of place.

I've been at professional SWAT competitions where a team of pros clears a house on a timer and they get gunned up because they make simple mistakes like not looking closely enough behind furniture and doors.

Everyone thinks they have the home field advantage in their house. They're wrong. Home field advantages are for games, not life and death. You want all the advantages on your side, not just some. All the advantages exist when you're barricaded with the lights shining down a clear line of fire and only one approach to you that is straight down that line of fire and not half asleep walking through your house "checking things out" with a gun in your hand.

When I used to help teach this we walked everyone through the shoot house and around every piece of furniture in every room talking about clearing and shooting in the office or home. We did this after a couple of hours just going over shooting in the office or home in the class room. We showed them "how" to do it in theory and while we walked through. We started their first scenario with the lights on and then only after they completed it did we drop the lights to low light and after that to dark. They all got shot on the first, second and third runs before they could "kill" me (Ok, one guy "killed" me before I could get a shot off because he out-patienced me. I moved thinking he had gone out of the scenario and he put two in the chest and one in the head like he'd been doing it all his life.{I was so proud of him!}).

....until you take a course with Simunition or with Airsoft and try to clear your house you can't appreciate how suicidal it is. Or you could just take our word for it.

Now, would I do it if I had to get to Michaela? With Gwen or Paul backing me up, sure. Paul and I have done it at his old house when he insisted on going in when he was robbed for the second time in 2 months. Gwen and I have practiced it, but I wouldn't put much stock in it. With Dan Mounger I'd be as comfortable as with the guy I used to teach this with. By myself? Yeah, but I'd try like hell to be wearing my vest and carrying the AR and the P14 with the +2 mag and Jackalope going ahead of me. I'd still be doing it as a dead man intent upon taking the threat to the grave with me to save her. Did you hear that part? I'd consider myself already dead if I had to do it without a partner I trusted and knew as much as I do about the techinique. That's how bad I consider doing this to be. You'll never find me clearing my house outside of that particular circumstance.

As you can see, this has come up before. There are plenty more like this.

A former police SWAT team lead (now a police lieutenant and tactics instructor) I know says, stay put. When they did have to clear buildings, they used trained teams, body armor, shotguns, carbines, H&K machine pistols, and stun grenades--and they really, really did not like to have to do it at all.
 
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Agreed, she should have stayed put where you told her. Mine knows to get the kids and go to our bedroom where she is armed and does not come out unless I give her the word or the police have arrived and she can tell it is an officer. Further we have a code word that if we either one use it, we know the other is compromised and needs help.
 
Could CCTV make this a safer thing to do?
Excellent security device, and getting quite affordable.

If you see that someone is in the kitchen or garage or downstairs and you do not recognize him, you know to call 911 pronto. If you see a family member, you know to not do anything you will regret forever. If you see a raccoon on the porch you know to go back to bed.

I've been thinking about getting a system with several cameras.
 
My understanding, which I've read/heard from multiple sources is that house clearing by armed residents has been "wargamed" to death using simunitions and other methods.

The bottom line is that the bad guys can establish the overwhelming advantage of initiative and ambush on short notice, and if they do, you're literally hosed down with bullets while still trying to determine *if* a threat exists in the room whose pie you are cornering in such a tacti-stylish and fully rule 4 compliant non wife/kid/dog shooting manner.


Period.

Full stop.


That being said, they don't always hear you coming or establish an ambush, that also happens, but really, is that the way to bet?

At the end of the day victory is decided by who is walking into who's ambush.

If you desperately *need* to be somewhere else in the house (say, the armory or the kid's room, which probably aren't the same thing), you need to DASH.
 
I do not believe that most people that hear a noise in the garage are going to call the police.
That's probably true.

But the fact that 'most people' do some thing or another does not impart value nor wisdom to that act. It simply denotes common practice.
 
he fact that 'most people' do some thing or another does not impart value nor wisdom to that act. It simply denotes common practice.

quite true

My point was that some have suggested that Dan acted imprudently when they would have done the exact same thing.

I was pointing out hypocrisy not suggesting that what the majority does is the correct action. In fact I would quote Mark Twain as an argument that the masses are wrong.

He said "whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"
 
But the fact that 'most people' do some thing or another does not impart value nor wisdom to that act. It simply denotes common practice.

There are other variables that affect this equation. For example, I don't own a lot of expensive things. I'm not a drug dealer. I don't associate with low-lifes. My neighborhood is hardened and an awful target (cul-de-sac, limited entry and exit, etc.).

Several close neighbors are retired and always at home. Others keep odd hours. Children are often about, playing in the street. Everyone knows everyone else and which cars are supposed to be here and which ones are not normally here. It would be a nightmare to case this street.

With forest and water on the property, raccoons and possums and armadillos and cats are occasional noise-makers, and from time to time kids cut across the lot. An odd noise that needs to be checked out is not likely to be an armed gang of men with AKs ready to blast away at the first thing that moves. Lights and cameras and so forth would be so paranoid as to be laughable.

Sure, it could happen. I keep an eye on my police blotter and my district has about the lowest crime rate in the city. The odds of a home invasion are virtually nil. Possible, but very low. So I keep loaded handguns and a shotgun at close hand, along with swords and knives and such, and if I need a weapon for some reason I've got strong options ready. Barricading is only planned as a last resort for a very specific situation.

My concern with this thread is that two armed homeowners came face to face by surprise. The problem could have been avoided by having both armed and staying together, or by the two staying in communication.
 
My point was that some have suggested that Dan acted imprudently when they would have done the exact same thing.
I have suggested that clearing the house is not wise, and I freely admit that I have essentially done the same thing.

But no more.

I think that unless one has really thought about it, and probably read about it, fairly extensively, Dan's actions would seem like the natural thing to do.

There's one real gem I will take from all of this: "At the end of the day, victory is decided by who is walking into whose ambush."

I really like that one.

Call the police upon hearing a noise in the garage? Depends. It the noise appears to come from something getting into the dog food container, no (but read on!). Continuing sounds of drills, jacks, etc.? Well, I don't know what "most people" would do, but I would call!

Many years ago, long before I realized the wisdom of getting into a defensive position and calling, we heard the sounds of desk drawers opening and closing, fast and repeatedly. I loaded up my high-number Model 1903 (another dumb move, of course) and went forth to ---- find our cat trying to find a catnip toy that was somewhere in the desk.

Had I fired the thing, my hearing (if any) would be worse than it is!
 
Heck, unless I have a stake in it I'm not going to clear an unknown structure at all. But, my house that I live in, and know where I know every stick of furniture, every nook and and every cranny? That I've walked and rehearsed the scenario countless times such that I can do it literally blind folded, and that I own? Well that one I'm going to clear.

I helped teach a defensive handgun course that involved a shoot house and simunition. I knew every little angle and hiddey-hole in the place because I helped build it and I "lived" in it over and over again as the BG in the scenarios. The lead instructor and I would sometimes act as home invaders in scenarios instead of BGs already in the house waiting for the homeowner to come hunting through the place. Even though it was "our" house we would find ourselves taking hits because there just is no way to cover all the angles by yourself. Regardless of whether you know the position of ever stick of furniture and every shadow there just isn't any way to pick LEFT and RIGHT at the same time as your FIRST direction to look. The idea that you can safely clear your own home by yourself is self delusion. Try running a shoot house sometime and then try to make it through with someone unfamiliar with the place in it. It's sobering.

What's the alternative? Get training for you and your wife to work as a two person team clearing the house. It's still suicidal, but less so than solo. Of course she might think that the money is better spent on an alarm system, 10X lights, controllers and cameras and a nice sturdy door.
 
Well it is my opinion that for 99.9% of us, 99.9% of the time, checking out the situation is prudent and is, quite frankly, our job.

I know Dan's wife and the expectation of her staying put when he says so is unrealistic so if he erred, that was the one.

The only way she would do that is if he tied her up. If that were the case he would be so distracted that you could steal the whole garage without worry of negative ramifications. :evil:
 
I have suggested that clearing the house is not wise, and I freely admit that I have essentially done the same thing.

But no more.

Call the police upon hearing a noise in the garage? Depends. It the noise appears to come from something getting into the dog food container, no (but read on!). Continuing sounds of drills, jacks, etc.? Well, I don't know what "most people" would do, but I would call!

The problem is, noises are not always readily identifiable. So do you call or not? How many times do you call before the cops stop responding in any sort of timely manner?

The only time I have called the cops on a noise was when somebody slid a 40+ ceramic planter full of dirt about 2" on my patio inside of our locked fenced yard. Made a heck of a noise. My guess is that said person tripped over it in the dark. We called the cops about a prowler and they showed in about 15 minutes, which was nice. 15 minutes turned out to be a very long time.
 
Calling the police on every noise is kind of silly in my mind. But with that said, if you are to the point of arming your wife and having her lock down while you clear the house. I think you should.

My biggest threat would be a varmint of some sort. That is where awareness comes in. A raccoon is going to sound quite a bit different than a person.

Below are my inexperienced thoughts about the OP's situation and his need to "clear the house."

A burglar's goal is get in and get out, quick, with as much valuables as possible. They may be thinking let's ambush this resident, but I doubt it, their goal is to make money. They will be making noises of moving things. Boxes sliding, that squeaky wheel on the air compressor or lawn mower, the sound of your car's steering column being pulled apart (think plastic snaps popping if they bothered to unscrew it first) or even your car starting. Also bad guys (try hot-wiring a car without light) and animals (to a less extent) need light to see. Is your garage light on? Do you see variances in the light coming from beneath the door? This would indicate something is in there.

All those observations should happen before you unbolt your door. In both cases you want the intruder to leave whether animal or person. Maybe position your garage door button and light switches inside the house behind your solid, dead bolted door separating your garage from main house. If you flip on the lights and open the garage door, odds are any animal or burglar will skedaddle. Suck to get bit by a rabid squirrel because he couldn't get out of your garage.

If you are near your garage and don't hear a peep for 5 minutes, odds are nothing is in there, animal or human. Especially if your garage door is closed. If you are still worried don't attempt to "clear" the garage for another couple hours. The BG wouldn't be expecting that. How long can someone pay attention if they are planning on ambushing you?

Or as somebody else said already. Security cameras would save a lot of trouble.
 
The only way she would do that is if he tied her up. If that were the case he would be so distracted that you could steal the whole garage without worry of negative ramifications.

Already tried it. She'd have none of it. :( Took forever for my bruises to heal. :eek:

Seriously, as to whether I should call the cops or not, and under what circumstances. Trust me, if I'd thought there was a human attempting to get into my house I'd have called them. Granted I took a weapon because it might be a human doing something bad. But even if I'd thought it was a human intent on malice I might still... actually probably would have checked it out myself, or at least set my self up to ambush them as they entered the house. Like I've stated before, not having children I have some freedom that others might not have. And, I have very strong ideals about right and wrong, and it is definitely wrong to allow evil to happen if you can do something about it.

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

As to being able to clear a house by yourself; I freely admit to not being an expert, but regardless I'm still very comfortable checking the house for a noise unless I have evidence of a successful entry.

Regardless, this incident has helped her to come somewhat out of her 'it can't happen to me' mindset, and for that it was a good thing. If nothing else hopefully she'll understand the need to do as expected from now on. And, as stated before she even brought up making plans last night so from that point of view it's was a positive experience.
 
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