Need .38 FBI Load of Something Close

Status
Not open for further replies.

Confederate

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
3,402
Location
Arlington, VA
Massad Ayoob recommends the Winchester FBI load .38 Spc +P 147-gr lead hollowpoint wadcutter for defense. The only problem is that I can't find this load anywhere. In the past I've always favored the 110-gr JHP +P; however, I usually go with Ayoob's recommendations.

Also, what's the best place to buy ammunition $$$-wise? Is Wal*Mart a good place? How about the Internet? I've checked CheaperThanDirt.com and found that they aren't as cheap as they make out. I'm not interested in buying large quantities.

Thanks!
 
Confererate,

If you are using the small J frame, something like a 642, an excellent choice would be Gold Dot .38 Special Short Barrel +P ammo. It is easily found and widely recommended for personal defense.

The muzzle energy will be 222 ft/lbs according to the Gold Dot literature.

I get mine from Midway USA.

If you just want to play around, the WWB (Winchester White Box) USA ammo from Walmart will be just fine. It is .38 Special in a large economy size.

Bill
 
.38 Spc +P 147-gr lead hollowpoint wadcutter for defense.

I believe you mean the 158 grain Lead hollowpoint semi wadcutter.
Remington and Winchester make this round.
I haven't read the book, just recall many posts relating to this question.
 
The "FBI Load" is 158 gr LSWCHP+P (Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point). Try looking for it using that criteria. Several companies have a loading like that including W-W, Federal, and Remington.
 
Too Good to be True?

Thank you all for your responses. Yes, I've seen that there's a 158gr listing; however, there are a number of references to a 147gr LHP .38 load. Even though Ayoob's book is quite new, the FBI load apparently now is 158gr.

Even so, there's a website that challenges the Marshall/Sanow one-shot stop data that Ayoob relies heavily upon. It's entitled Too Good to be True and I would invite any comments on it.

The debate is whether, from a 2-inch barrel, a light JHP bullet is better or a heavier LHP. According the the data referenced above, there's little difference. Just a percentage point or two. The lighter bullets do offer less recoil than the heavier bullets, and that's something else to consider.
 
Both the 158-grain LSWCHP +P and the 147-grain LHP +P (and +P+) were "FBI" loads. The 147-grain being the load used later to replace the 158-grain. Unfortunately, that load seems to have fallen largely out of favor, so I'd recommend the older 158-grain load. The 158 is my choice in defensive .38 specials.

-Rob
 
Double Tap loads a mean 158 grain LHP +P that they claim does 1000 FPS out of a snub. When I buy my 642, thats what Im planning on carrying.
 
Midway USA and Natchez Shooters Supplies usually have it in stock. It's pretty pricey stuff for Remington version, usually $25-28 per box of 50. I get it at local shop that has it in stock. Look for the 158-grain +P "LHP" (Lead Hollow Point).

-Rob
 
I also suggest the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr Short Barrel .38 +P for your J frame. It was specifically designed for a 2" or less barrel. If it's good enough for the NYPD, it's good enough for me.
 
Again thanks for your replies.

Does Wal*Mart carry any of these rounds? It's quite a distance for us, but we do get out that way once in a while. Not much use ordering it as it's like ordering a brick. The postage would eat up any discounts.
 
It was specifically designed for a 2" or less barrel. If it's good enough for the NYPD, it's good enough for me.

You know your gonna take some heat for that one bro, but I agree! Was made specifically for NYPD for the 1 7/8" barreled guns. There are still a few of us holdouts left. It now sits in the 640, 15 and the 2" 10. Still have a few boxes of the NYCLAD 158 SWCHP if I find out different. Bill
 
i prefer the Remington version of the "FBI" load.

Rem. uses a softer lead than Win. or Fed. and it expands more reliably from a 2" barrel.
 
"Rem. uses a softer lead than Win. or Fed. and it expands more reliably from a 2" barrel"

+1

Flip.
 
C-grunt:
Double Tap loads a mean 158 grain LHP +P that they claim does 1000 FPS out of a snub. When I buy my 642, thats what Im planning on carrying.

I can't find any .38 Special on their site.
Do you have any other information? I'm very interested.
 
C-grunt
Double Tap loads a mean 158 grain LHP +P that they claim does 1000 FPS out of a snub. When I buy my 642, thats what Im planning on carrying.

I'd have to see that on my chronograph before I'd believe it.

The Federal +P 158gr LSWCHP is a pretty hot load and only does 747 fps from a 2 inch barrel and only 810 fps from a 3 inch barrel.
 
Even though Ayoob's book is quite new, the FBI load apparently now is 158gr.

The .38special "FBI Load" has always been 158gr +P LSWCHP. If Ayoob's book lists anything different, it's a typo by the publisher.

Ayoob is a THR member. Perhaps he'll see this thread and comment.
 
I use federal 110 gr. personal defense in my 642 and my S&W 10-4. Makes shootin the 642 off hand very accurate. After all the more it exanguinates (bleeds out), the quicker it expires. Using an ammo you can hit consistently with is the most important thing.
 
Ammoman.com

Has them, but at $149 for 500 rounds, It's probably more than you want to buy. Federal brand.
 
Last edited:
Ayoob-FBI .38spl load-158gr LSWC-HP +P

I may be wrong but I've read Mr Ayoob's gun/legal articles for many years and can't recall him saying the "FBI" load for the .38spl was a JHP 147gr round. :scrutiny:

I do know that Massad Ayoob and other major gun press writers have called the 158gr Lead SWC-HP +P round the "FBI load". It's also known as the "Chicago load" or the "Treasury load"(because sworn LE agents in the US Dept of Treasury would use it).

I use the great Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P JHP for my GP-100 .38spl. ;)

I also like the Winchester SXT 130gr +P JHP, Corbon 110gr +P+ JHP and Magsafe .38spl round for duty use/protection.

Ayoob is on this site often. You may want to check with him about this topic.

Rusty ;)
 
I think they meant Buffalo Bore, not Double Tap. Remington is indeed softer and more reliable at expanding than either Winchester or Federal FBI loads. I think the Remingtons get better velocity from 3" barrels, too. The so-called "FBI load" has always been a 158 gr LHP. Though I'm pretty sure now that they now mainly use .40 S&W Gold Dots, I forget which grain weight.

From a snubby, your absolute hands down best bet is 135 grain Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots. Controllable recoil and excellent performance. Much better performance through clothing than the FBI load, from a short barrel.

3" barrel and up, and the Remington FBI load is probably king.
 
The .38special "FBI Load" has always been 158gr +P LSWCHP. If Ayoob's book lists anything different, it's a typo by the publisher.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the Federal 147 grain +P+ Hydra Shok was the FBI issued .38 Special load, following the 158 grain LSWCHP classic "FBI load". It was the standard until .38s were no longer approved for carry a couple of years ago. Perhaps this is what Ayoob was referring to ???

- Regards
 
The 147 was a jacketed load. That basically means it needs to go fairly fast to expand - it wouldn't be my first choice out of a snub. The FBI shot it years ago from 4" barrels and it did OK there.

There have been a BUNCH of 158+P plain lead hollowpoints, and the very similar Federal "Nyclad" (basically same thing dipped in plastic) load.

* Federal 158gr +P plain lead hollowpoint: AVOID at all cost. You sometimes see these cheap at ammoman.com - they are just plain loaded too wimpy.

* Nyclad version of same: harder to find, according to some reports may be a tad hotter than the plain lead variant. I wouldn't bother looking for 'em.

* Winchester: better than Federal, good velocity but the lead alloy is just a wee bit hard. From a 4" barrel they're great, they'll probably expand from a 3", from a 2"...kinda iffy. Current production.

* Remington: now we're talking. Usually does at least 825fps from a snub, often better if it's a Ruger or recent-model S&W. Very soft lead, good reliable expansion, GREAT load. More scarce than Winchester's version but still current production. Midway usually has 'em in stock. VERY cheap as defensive ammo goes.

* Cor-Bon: they used to make a 158 lead hollowpoint 38+P, and made enough that you still see some on dealer's shelves now and again. It was HOT, often pulling 1,000fps or close to it from a snubby. Tended to lead up barrels something fierce, but as a defensive carry load was a monster. I would use these only in tougher 38spl guns, or small 357s.

* Buffalo Bore: BuffBore took the Cor-Bon load and duplicated it except with a "gas check" - they slapped a copper baseplate onto the otherwise all lead bullet, covering just the back. This prevents hot gasses burning the tail off the bullet and plating the barrel with lead. These are consistently hitting 1,000fps from snubbies and are THE performance champions in 38Spl, bar none, end of discussion. At 350ft/lbs energy they're deep into 9mm from a 4" barrel territory and are as hot as a few mild 357 loads. They're also expensive, and I wouldn't shoot them in my neat old late-70s production 17oz Charter Arms Undercover, as one example.

If anyone knows of other 158+P lead hollowpoints I'd love to know about them, esp. if it's even possible they might turn up at a gun show or whatever.

-----

The other path to snubbie performance involves lighter jacketed rounds with big hollowpoints. Winchester pioneered this with their 130gr "Supreme" +P and then Speer did them one better with the 135 Gold Dot. Speer used to sell a deep-hollowpoint 125gr Gold Dot slug to other ammo houses such as Black Hills, Proload (RIP), Georgia Arms, Buffalo Bore and others. Such rounds are fine so long as they ARE Gold Dot slugs - these smaller ammo loaders will have to switch to something else and I don't know that they'll be as good. Speer still loads the 125s themselves in 38+P but admits they're not as good in snubs as the exceptional 135.

If you're not going to deal with the recoil (or cost) of the BuffBore 158s, AND your gun weighs 15oz or more, the Remington 158+P is a great solution.

If your gun is some sort of "ultralight", the Speer 135s are a better choice as they will resist "bullet yanking" under recoil much better than the slick lead slugs will. Once you get down into the 10.5oz S&W featherweight, I would strongly recommend the Speer 135.

The Speer 135gr slug is also sold in 357 cases as a "lighter magnum for snubby 357s" - damn fine load too but don't try and use it in 38spl guns by mistake, m'kay? I've tested this mild 357 load in my New Vaquero and found it to be very accurate.

Other loads: if your gun is fairly tough, the Cor-Bon 110gr and 125gr +P jacketed loads are very, very potent and widely available. They're stronger than I'd want to run in my old Charter. Cor-Bon also has a 110gr all-copper hollowpoint DPX running at pretty high speeds - I haven't seen test data on these from snubbies but given how well the DPX has been working in other calibers they're probably respectable.

I checked: Doubletap ammo sells no 38spl ammo whatsoever. G-grunt mixed them up with BuffBore. No biggie :).

Don't buy BuffBore's 125gr JHP 38+P unless you find out what slug they're using. If it's still Gold Dot stock, fine, otherwise...I'd say avoid. It might be the Hornady XTP which needs a lot of speed to expand...*maybe* BuffBore is punching them out fast enough from snubs but I would be skeptical. Hornady claims it will expand at any speed from 800fps on up...I would call that seriously optimistic from the test photos I've seen.

Winchester's 130+P Supreme is a good load too. Not as good as Speer's 135 but if it's all you can find on short notice, it doesn't suck.

That is basically IT as far as what I'd trust my butt to from a 38Spl snubbie. Not a long list, is it? Snubbie performance is real marginal, it's one of those situations where you have to be picky about your ammo.

----------

Fixed-sight 38spl guns are often set up for bullet weights in the 148 - 158gr class. You'll need to check of course but very often you'll be driven in this direction for point of impact reasons.

----------

I'll throw one other comment in here: if your gun is marginal in the strength department, the Remington or Winchester 158+P lead loads are probably going to stress the gun the least of all these loads. If I was pressing something like a 40-year-old S&W M&P into defensive service because that's all I had, those would be my first choice and since the velocity is similar, wear and tear on the gun should be a wash between these two. The shorter the barrel, the more you should lean to Remington, once you get past 4" or so consider Winchester.
 
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the Federal 147 grain +P+ Hydra Shok was the FBI issued .38 Special load, following the 158 grain LSWCHP classic "FBI load". It was the standard until .38s were no longer approved for carry a couple of years ago. Perhaps this is what Ayoob was referring to ???
When the FBI first started issuing HP ammo in about 1975 the loading was W-W 158 gr LSWCHP+P. About 1977 or 1978 Federal was the issued ammo with the same 158 gr loading. I know that up until 1979 no 147 gr .38 ammo was issued for duty.
Prior to going to W-W 158 gr LSWCHP the issued load was 158 gr RNL.
The issued .357 ammo was either W-W or Remington 158 gr LSWC, non-HP. Policy dictate that regardless of which gun was carried only .38 LSWCHP+P was to be loaded in the gun. .357 ammo could be carried only as reload.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top