Best non +P defense load for a 4" revolver
- Thread starter 30-06
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Try the Speer 135g short barrel Gold Dots. Yes, they are +P, but my wife had no issues w/ them in a 25 oz revolver. They are pretty tame, and have great terminal performance to boot! 135g @ ~900 fps is still less than a standard 9mm in power.
Three suggestions
If you are going to shoot standard (non +P) ammo, then NYCLAD is my choice. I use it in my alloy frame snubnose revolvers. The bullet is so soft, you can deform it yourself.
My second recommendation is the REMINGTON 125 grain jhp +P load.
I know you are trying to avoid +P, but I found the recoil of this round to be noticably lower than the 158 grain +P.
To me, the recoil of the 158 grain +P load is almost, if not just as bad as the 110 grain .357 magnum in my revolvers.
I used it when I was overseas and could not get any .357 hollowpoint for my 686. After a couple of boxes, I made sure I picked up some 110 grain .357 hollowpoint the next time I was in the U.S. and brought it back with me.
Consider an auto. My wife loves my S&W model 12, but found the recoil was more than she wanted. She ended up with my SIG 225. The action absorbs enough of the recoil that she can shoot it and still control the weapon.
Good luck,
Jim
If you are going to shoot standard (non +P) ammo, then NYCLAD is my choice. I use it in my alloy frame snubnose revolvers. The bullet is so soft, you can deform it yourself.
My second recommendation is the REMINGTON 125 grain jhp +P load.
I know you are trying to avoid +P, but I found the recoil of this round to be noticably lower than the 158 grain +P.
To me, the recoil of the 158 grain +P load is almost, if not just as bad as the 110 grain .357 magnum in my revolvers.
I used it when I was overseas and could not get any .357 hollowpoint for my 686. After a couple of boxes, I made sure I picked up some 110 grain .357 hollowpoint the next time I was in the U.S. and brought it back with me.
Consider an auto. My wife loves my S&W model 12, but found the recoil was more than she wanted. She ended up with my SIG 225. The action absorbs enough of the recoil that she can shoot it and still control the weapon.
Good luck,
Jim
stonecoldy
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A decent and accurate practice load for my daughter in her S&W Model 60, and my Dan Wesson 15-2, was the 100 grain DEWC in their 38 Special load from Mastercast Bullet Company of Enon, PA. Website is www.mastercast.net. These are great if you don't reload, very mild.
They have other options from there, such as 148 DEWC and up.
Now I usually supply hollow base 148 gr wadcutters at 2.8 grains of Bullseye for range trips.
They have other options from there, such as 148 DEWC and up.
Now I usually supply hollow base 148 gr wadcutters at 2.8 grains of Bullseye for range trips.
I find it interesting that the OP has specifically requested "NON +P" loads,
and yet many responders insist on recommending them. I am willing to bet the OP knows what he wants or what his wife is comfortable with.
Stay with what she likes and what she can hit with, the standard wadcutter.
and yet many responders insist on recommending them. I am willing to bet the OP knows what he wants or what his wife is comfortable with.
Stay with what she likes and what she can hit with, the standard wadcutter.
roaddog28
Member
I agree. From what the OP says his wife is comfortable with wadcutters. This round is not the best for self defense round but if she is accurate shooting them at least she will have confidence if she has to use them in a self defense situation.
I recommendated the Federal Nyclad because it is a hollow point and its about as close to shooting a wadcutter as a person is going to find.
Regards,
Howard
I think recoil is the question
I think what the original poster wrote was that his wife did not want anything to do with 158 grain +P lhp. These are hard kicking loads for a .38 Special.
I would not recommend wadcutters. Their velocity is often much less than standard pressure .38 Special ammo, so I am not sure they offer better stopping power.
The 125 grain NYCLAD ammo has a good track record for what it is. A low recoiling round at moderate velocity. The soft lead bullet will expand because it is really soft. The NYCLAD part, a wrap of nylon plastic is meant to keep the soft lead bullet from leading the barrel.
Like 30-06's wife, I found the 158 grain +P loads to have heavy recoil for a .38 Special. My experience with J frame 5 shot revolvers and K & L frame revolvers is that the 125 grain +P recoils less and I found it acceptable in the K frame guns.
Jim
I think what the original poster wrote was that his wife did not want anything to do with 158 grain +P lhp. These are hard kicking loads for a .38 Special.
I would not recommend wadcutters. Their velocity is often much less than standard pressure .38 Special ammo, so I am not sure they offer better stopping power.
The 125 grain NYCLAD ammo has a good track record for what it is. A low recoiling round at moderate velocity. The soft lead bullet will expand because it is really soft. The NYCLAD part, a wrap of nylon plastic is meant to keep the soft lead bullet from leading the barrel.
Like 30-06's wife, I found the 158 grain +P loads to have heavy recoil for a .38 Special. My experience with J frame 5 shot revolvers and K & L frame revolvers is that the 125 grain +P recoils less and I found it acceptable in the K frame guns.
Jim
roaddog28
Member
Good point Jim. Maybe 30-06 should buy one box of Remington golden saber 125 grain +Ps and let her try it. But if she is use to wadcutters then the Federal Nyclad is about as close to a wadcutter. I know because I use Nyclads in my S&W model 36.
Howard
Were is this track record that the nyclad is wonderful?
yes it is soft and expands, and did you know the faster a handgun bullet expands the faster it retards the penitration. If we are talking about shooting milk jugs of water and jel wow it has a good track record. If we are talking about humans I'll take a hard cast wadcutter over it.
yes it is soft and expands, and did you know the faster a handgun bullet expands the faster it retards the penitration. If we are talking about shooting milk jugs of water and jel wow it has a good track record. If we are talking about humans I'll take a hard cast wadcutter over it.
Is penetration that important?
PETE,
If penetration was the only factor, then the old 158 grain round nose would have been a good stopper instead of being nicknamed the "WIDOW MAKER" by some of the cops who used it.
It also had a reputation for overpenetrating the target.
The NYCLAD may not penetrate as deep, but it will cause damage and not have the ICEPICK effect of just drilling a hole that can close up after the bullet passes through.
MARSHALL & SANOW rated it the NYCLAD highly for a non+P. If you agree with their work, then it is a good choice.
If not, then what low recoil load do you recommend.
I know that NYPD tried a non expanding semi-wadcutter and it worked no better than the round nose bullet for them.
Going to +P without a hollow point (for political reasons) was just another failure for them.
LAPD at one time used a 200 grain round nose .38 Special and it had a very poor reputation.
Jim
PETE,
If penetration was the only factor, then the old 158 grain round nose would have been a good stopper instead of being nicknamed the "WIDOW MAKER" by some of the cops who used it.
It also had a reputation for overpenetrating the target.
The NYCLAD may not penetrate as deep, but it will cause damage and not have the ICEPICK effect of just drilling a hole that can close up after the bullet passes through.
MARSHALL & SANOW rated it the NYCLAD highly for a non+P. If you agree with their work, then it is a good choice.
If not, then what low recoil load do you recommend.
I know that NYPD tried a non expanding semi-wadcutter and it worked no better than the round nose bullet for them.
Going to +P without a hollow point (for political reasons) was just another failure for them.
LAPD at one time used a 200 grain round nose .38 Special and it had a very poor reputation.
Jim
roaddog28
Member
There is no question in my mind that the 158gr LSWCHP 38+P is the best defense round for a 38 special. History proves this. But the OP is saying his wife is recoil sensitive and won't shoot a +P because they kick too hard.
When it comes down to standard pressure 38 special hollow points there not many options. History shows the Federal Nyclad is one of the best at doing its job. Its not the best defense round for a 38 special but it might be the best for people that don't like recoil.
Regards,
Howard
When it comes down to standard pressure 38 special hollow points there not many options. History shows the Federal Nyclad is one of the best at doing its job. Its not the best defense round for a 38 special but it might be the best for people that don't like recoil.
Regards,
Howard
Jim and Howard,
I've used this round in the line of duty and can attest is sucks that as far as I will go on the incident.
I am in the full wadcutter camp and am a big fan of Jim Cirillo. The full wadcutter a hardcast is better cuts a full diameter hole cutting all the arteries causing more blood lose
and gets better "penetration" which will be needed to get to the viatal organs to shut the body down.
I actually was carrying Buffalo Baor full wadcutters till recently I now carry Jim Cirillos
Safe Stop ammuntion which is a full wadutter with a "V" notch in it.
It worked for Jim a man that was involved in many shooting on the NYPD stakeout unit.
Pete
I've used this round in the line of duty and can attest is sucks that as far as I will go on the incident.
I am in the full wadcutter camp and am a big fan of Jim Cirillo. The full wadcutter a hardcast is better cuts a full diameter hole cutting all the arteries causing more blood lose
and gets better "penetration" which will be needed to get to the viatal organs to shut the body down.
I actually was carrying Buffalo Baor full wadcutters till recently I now carry Jim Cirillos
Safe Stop ammuntion which is a full wadutter with a "V" notch in it.
It worked for Jim a man that was involved in many shooting on the NYPD stakeout unit.
Pete
Loosedhorse
member
So...having shot several folks with Nyclads, and several with wadcutters, you found what exactly?
Oh. I guess, who needs details?
I'd stay with the wadcutters thats what I usually carry in J frame sized 38s for SD. Easy on the gun and shooter. Some are critical due to lack of expansion but remember a hollowpoint has to expand a bit to get in the same shape as a wadcutter is starting out.
zxcvbob
Member
A round-nosed bullet does that icepick thing, unless it is just minimally stablized and tumbles as soon as it hits (British .38 S&W 200 grain supposedly did that, but .38 Special 200's are probably moving too fast)
A wadcutter is more like a hole puncher than an icepick.
Loosedhorse,
What has been found out by myself, Jim Cirillo (RIP), and many other LEO's I know that hae been involved in shootings Dosent matter If it's of +p the WC, SWC and the SWCHP
are # 1 in 38sp wether 2,3 or 4 inch barells.
As far as my shooting incident if I were to talk about or give the details everyone would
know what agency I was working for and around were I live, which is not everyones business.
I guess those that look at gel shootings and shootings of water jugs filled with water will know more than real experiance and firearms instructors. Oh and also talk to medical examiners and attend autopsy's.
I'm done I will not lend anymore real life experiance.
What has been found out by myself, Jim Cirillo (RIP), and many other LEO's I know that hae been involved in shootings Dosent matter If it's of +p the WC, SWC and the SWCHP
are # 1 in 38sp wether 2,3 or 4 inch barells.
As far as my shooting incident if I were to talk about or give the details everyone would
know what agency I was working for and around were I live, which is not everyones business.
I guess those that look at gel shootings and shootings of water jugs filled with water will know more than real experiance and firearms instructors. Oh and also talk to medical examiners and attend autopsy's.
I'm done I will not lend anymore real life experiance.
Loosedhorse
member
Then no offense, but lacking data from you except "take my word for it," I will go with the detailed, published reports of actual shootings that do exist, which rate the Nyclad 125 gr as one of the best non-+Ps.
I'm sure it's fine with you if I do so.
I'm sure it's fine with you if I do so.
OldCavSoldier
Member
Wadcutters. Definitely. What good is a premium or fast moving bullet if you cannot hit what you're aiming at?
oneounceload
member
You already answered your own question.............
Seamore2001
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Others have already recommended the Hornady non-+P loads in 110 and 125 grains. I'd also add to that Hornady's 158 grain XTP load for the 38 special. It's a non-+P load and is listed at 800 fps at the muzzle and 765 at 50 yards. I use it in my alloy frame Cobra and don't find the recoil excessive - perhaps your wife would be comfortable with this load.
saltydog452
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Dunno about 'best' or 'worst', but there are a few remaining 158 HP Nyclads still in the closet. Those and 148 HB WC seem to be pretty much the limit of what my lady is comfortable fooling with.
Just me behind the wheel of Sweetie's Cobra, but the Nyclad and the 148s didn't bust through a scrap yard windshield.
salty
Just me behind the wheel of Sweetie's Cobra, but the Nyclad and the 148s didn't bust through a scrap yard windshield.
salty
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