Need a 2nd opinion on 44sp loads

[Project355]

Revolver is a Charter Arms Boomer, 44 sp. Very lightweight. JAG brass, 240g Missouri cast bullets, CCI lg pistol primers, and 4.4g of WW231 powder. The "starting load" was only 4.2g of powder in the Lee manual

Problem is - primers backing out, removing all the "slack" in the headspace and causing some drag on cylinder rotation. Un-primed brass no issues with rotation. When the brass is primed, the primers are just below flush. After firing, they sitting proud of the case head by just a little. Did not even try to measure how high. Maybe .002-.003 at most. Just discernible with a finger tip. Fired primers show absolutely no flattening at all.

Post-firing cleaning and inspection, I noticed there was some roughness around the firing pin hole. Took out the firing pin, checked the tunnel and hole in the frame for internal burrs, and determined that the roughness was just a little leftover tooling mark(s). I stoned those (literally) flat, and it didn't take much. So the recoil shield is now smooth, but... I'm wondering.... maybe I should up the load a little. Seems like the cases aren't being slammed back to "reseat" the primers as the cartridges are fired. Forgot to mention, too, that fired brass is basically "zero extra headspace". IOW, all the slack is out of the cylinder end play with those in the chambers. If I "fire" the fired brass by cycling 'em thru the cylinder again, I get the end play return to more or less normal (again, I didn't measure it tonite). And, the primers are once again sitting just a bit under the the head of the case again. Obviously, the firing pin has "reseated" the fired primers.

So, up the load? What say?

 

[cfullgraf]

Do you feel some resistance in the primer when seating them? I think some of the foreign primers are a smidge larger than domestic primers and may have more resistance to moving.

You might try a different brand of case.

In these days, both are not an easy solution due to lack of availability of components.

Maybe increase the powder charge a bit if you are not near max or the recoil comfort level you want.

Finally, you might be able to increase the seating load of the primer so that the cup expands a little bit to hold on to the walls of the primer pocket. I use a hand primer and squeeze the seating lever as hard as my hands can manage but a press mounted system may have more mechanical advantage that may damage the primer when seated with excess pressure.

Hope this helps.

 

[Project355]

Primer seating is normal. I'll decap a few see how they are on the outbound.

I can increase a tiny bit, not close to max at all. There are no stress signs at all, cases fall out of chambers.

And I should try the loads with the smoothed out shield. That might be all it takes. 'Factory' ammo runs great btw.

 

[Archie]

Firing a primer only (no charge, no bullet) will back the primer out and lock up the cylinder. The rearward action of the case in recoil (meaning a charge and bullet) fully seats the primer for successive shots.

Your load of 240 grain bullet and 4.4 grains of 231 is the starting load in the 2021 Hodgdon reloading manual (the only manual within reach). I suggest you up the load by a bit and see if that fixes the problem. Up the load a bit at a time until it works. As usual, do not exceed the maximum load. Yes, I know the light revolver is a handful anyway.

 

[Project355]

Yah, and these are just range loads for me. Carry is factory.

 

[Palladan44]

This sounds like one of those idiosyncrasies that usually gets resolved by changing one or a couple small variables. Ive had sonething similar happen in .38 spl loads. Just changed the brand of primer, and that solved it (i know right now that could be difficult) It also has some to do with the design of the gun. My 586 or M13 are more likely to do this, where it wont happen in my 27 or 28.

 

[forrest r]

Ya that's a lite load, +/- 7,000psi

Ca took a page out of the ruger playbook and tend to have generous cylinder holes. The large holes aid in the handling of hot loads but flip the coin and you're seeing the affects lite loads have on the same large holes.

I'm a huge fan of the ca bulldogs and have owned/used/carried them since the 80's.They're a small package that hits like a full sized 45acp/1911. I reference the 1911 for the simple fact that when I setup my powder throw for the 45acp's I use powders/loads that can also be used for the 44psl's. A link to an article brian pearce did back in 2005.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian Pearce on the 44 Special.pdf

In feb-march 2018 pearce did another article for handloader magazine #312, an updated version of the 44spl using a lot better bullet selection and more powders/modern powders. Well worth reading

Myself I like 180gr to 220gr bullets in the bulldogs, they are excellent for blammo ammo/extended range play. They also really shine in the short bbl'd bulldogs when you heat them up.

 

[Rule3]

To light of a load. Up it a little. You have a whole 1.0 gr to play with


http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

 

[Typetwelve]

Firing a primer only (no charge, no bullet) will back the primer out and lock up the cylinder. The rearward action of the case in recoil (meaning a charge and bullet) fully seats the primer for successive shots.

Your load of 240 grain bullet and 4.4 grains of 231 is the starting load in the 2021 Hodgdon reloading manual (the only manual within reach). I suggest you up the load by a bit and see if that fixes the problem. Up the load a bit at a time until it works. As usual, do not exceed the maximum load. Yes, I know the light revolver is a handful anyway.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think that's enough "umph" to push the casing back hard enough to maintain primer seating depth. I found out the hard way what happens when you pop off a primer in an empty case and in a revolver...like you said, stuck cylinder.

I make "lighter" loads for my Bulldog as well...but not that low.

I often use the Brian Pierce 2005 article about 44 spcl loads. He lists an initial "15,500 PSI of less" and in that, it shows 5.5g of W231 under a 240g lead projectile as having 804 fps from a 6.5" revolver, that's a light load in a bulldog.

 

[whughett]

Couple of # posts best me too it. Mouse fart loads in a revolver syndrome.

 

[Walkalong]

Bump the load up a bit and the problem will go away. Load is to light to reseat primers.

 

[Project355]

That was pretty much what I had in mind. Delete manual showed 4.2 as the starting load. From memory I think it was 5.0 or 5.2 as a max load.
Many thanks for the input, it pretty much cemented what I already had in mind.

 

[Rule3]

That was pretty much what I had in mind. Delete manual showed 4.2 as the starting load. From memory I think it was 5.0 or 5.2 as a max load.
Many thanks for the input, it pretty much cemented what I already had in mind.

I posted a link to the Hodgdon data. Lee data is just a copy of data from other sources (like Hodgdon)

That is a pretty heavy bullet for such a light revolver. JMHO but I prefer a lighter bullet going a little faster.

 

[Project355]

Tru Dat on weight, but is what I have these days... Couple thousand give or take.

 

[Ru4real]

Firing a primer only (no charge, no bullet) will back the primer out and lock up the cylinder.

I agree.

In a low 7000 psi load such as OP
1. sufficient pressure for brass case to “weld” to the inside of the cylinder, thus case doesn’t move backwards
2. primer sides have relatively low area binding to primer pocket, thus low resistance for primer to move back
3. insufficient pressure to create case head expansion, thus slight gap between case head and frame
4. sufficient pressure on bottom / anvil primer cup to create a force to push primer out of stationary case head

 

[murf]

or switch to a faster powder like bullseye.

luck,

murf

 

[Typetwelve]

I posted a link to the Hodgdon data. Lee data is just a copy of data from other sources (like Hodgdon)

That is a pretty heavy bullet for such a light revolver. JMHO but I prefer a lighter bullet going a little faster.

Not to break this off into a side conversation...but I really don't think you're going to get good enough velocity out of such a short barrel and an already slow moving projectile. I've given up on the thought of effectively getting a hollow point to effectively bloom from my Bulldog, no matter how light the projectile is.

I think that companies like Buffalo Bore and Underwood have the right idea with their 200g wadcutter hard cast loads:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=282
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...in-hard-cast-wadcutter?variant=18785707360313

A hard plug of lead moving along at around 900 or so FPS would do some serious damage.

 

[Rule3]

Not to break this off into a side conversation...but I really don't think you're going to get good enough velocity out of such a short barrel and an already slow moving projectile. I've given up on the thought of effectively getting a hollow point to effectively bloom from my Bulldog, no matter how light the projectile is.

I think that companies like Buffalo Bore and Underwood have the right idea with their 200g wadcutter hard cast loads:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=282
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...in-hard-cast-wadcutter?variant=18785707360313

A hard plug of lead moving along at around 900 or so FPS would do some serious damage.

They all work. A hole is a hole, Shot placement is what it's all about.

 

[Walkalong]

All primers back out for a millisecond (less?), but when the case head will get’s pushed to the rear by pressure it reseats the primer.

Without enough pressure, from no powder or a very light load, there isn’t enough force to push the case head back over the primer as the case head gets pushed back to the breechface.

 

[mdi]

Walkalong's post is 100% correct, simple and to the point. Been reloading for revolvers since 1969 and ran across this phenonium early...

 

[Project355]

Bringing this back up just to provide some details.....

I went out and found a nice copy of the Speer Reloading Manual #10, from 1978. Then I compared the current Speer manual to that data. It was identical at 5.2g as a starting load with 231, and 5.7g as the "max". Compare that with the 4.2g starting load in the Lee manual, with its own max at 5.2g. - although for HP38, which should be the same as 231. Well... that's a whole lot different!

I've got the recoil shield area as good as its gonna get on the little Boomer so .... since I've got a few 44SP's still loaded up at 4.5g, I'll see how they do, and up the load to 5.4ish next loading go round. To be honest, the recoil felt like light 38sp loads in a full size revolver like a GP100.... The Boomer and my hand can take more, so no problem with that.

Thanks for confirming what I suspected (and really didn't have the insight to check at the time)

 

[Project355]

And a second update.... Have loaded up some 165g with 6.0 grain of W231. Have not had a chance to shoot 'em though. In the meantime, I put 5 primed cases in the chambers, closed the cylinder, and pulled the trigger 5 times. Five bangs, nice smell of lead styphnates, and quite nearly no cylinder drag. I'm guessing I'll be good to go, even on the remaining very light loads if the cylinder had barely any drag with primers. Barely any is... just a tiny bit on "free rotation" and nothing felt on the trigger or when opening/closing.

 

[Palladan44]

Ive had sooty cases when i was "working down" some .38 wadcutter " Mouse fart" loads.
Also, the primer thing youre mentioning occurred.

I worked back up a little bit and problems started to resolve.

Like theyre saying above, the lack of obturation of the case allows primer setback due to pressures being low and slow.

Interesting thought, what causes flattened primers? Not necessarily a sign of excessive pressure, but it certainly can be. In the mannerisms everything happens in that microsecond after you pull a trigger, the primer must set back a little, but then with enough pressure and case setback to partially crush it.

 

[Project355]

I wasn't aiming for mouse fart loads... just the middle of the range of weights given in the (as it turns out) very conservative Lee book.
Next session with the lil'44 I'll bring out some of the zombie loads (double round ball) and see how they do.

 

[wcwhitey]

I wasn't aiming for mouse fart loads... just the middle of the range of weights given in the (as it turns out) very conservative Lee book.
Next session with the lil'44 I'll bring out some of the zombie loads (double round ball) and see how they do.

Every round has a sweet spot. Just work up your loads a bit till you get what you want. Went thru this will leading. Sometimes lower pressure and velocity is a bad thing. Some rounds, powder and bullet combos just have to be driven.