Need a soft .38 load...

[CMV]

Thanks again.

To clarify, I want to use what I have on hand UNLESS there is such a HUGE difference in felt recoil that I must to go buy a different bullet weight/profile or different brand of powder because it's like comparing catching a fastball to beach ball.

I loaded up some of the 158gr LSWC bullets w/3.2gr W231 as suggested. They all made it out of my 6" GP100 barrel. Pretty soft, but need to try in the lighter gun to verify. I wouldn't call it .22 recoil, but it was very mild. Interesting that POI wasn't much different at 15 yds. Don't know why, but I was expecting them to just drop like rocks - probably would from a little further back?

Is it reasonable - or even worthwhile - to further work down the load? At 3.0, 2.8, 2.6, etc am I right on the edge of stuck bullets, flashovers, squibs, or whatever other light charge mishaps are out there? Or would it be pointless because the charge is so low there won't be any felt difference with a few tenths less? I'm going to assume that whatever reliably exits my 6" barrel will do so in any 2-3" barrel too.

Also, this round needs very little "stopping power". It is intended for a novice shooter who is concerned about a coyote trying to snatch up her dog while she's out walking it. Needs to have enough zip to make a coyote decide it's not that hungry after all. The only reasons we're not going the .22 route are (1) a decent .22 revolver that's not SA only costs as much as a decent .38 & (2) if she ever does want something with a little more oomph it won't require another purchase.

BTW 'she' is my ~70 y/o mother. She's in great shape for her age, very active & healthy - kind of like Helen Mirren or Diane Keaton - about 70 but not a "little old lady". She has just never really shot guns and is very concerned about the recoil. She lives out in a rural area & has plenty of land to shoot. So she will go out & practice a little, but not if she's scared of the gun or it's unpleasant after a few shots. But since she will want to carry it while also walking the dog the gun itself can't be too cumbersome - that's why I'm thinking it's something like an LCRx she'll end up with. I'd just give her my GP100 but I don't think she'll tote around a 45 oz gun but a 16 oz 3" LCRx would probably be just fine.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I loaded up some of the 158gr LSWC bullets w/3.2gr W231 as suggested. They all made it out of my 6" GP100 barrel. Pretty soft, but need to try in the lighter gun to verify. I wouldn't call it .22 recoil, but it was very mild. Interesting that POI wasn't much different at 15 yds. Don't know why, but I was expecting them to just drop like rocks - probably would from a little further back?

I don't know why you think that. That load is doing ~650 fps from your revolver. You probably wouldn't see much a difference even @50 yards. That load would make a good Varmint load too...

 

[BSA1]

Another ditto on using W-231. However I use 4.0 grs. with 158 gr. LSWC. Going too light of powder charge can cause excessive pressure. Also Mom's loads need enough zip to punch through the animal (heart / lung) or break bones such as the shoulder or spine.

Frankly any J-Frame snubby is going to have more felt recoil even with light loads. There is a noticable difference between my J-Frame and my Model 10.

 

[Mad Chemist]

I'd recommend a steel j-frame revolver not a polymer one. The weight difference will be a few ounces but the difference in felt recoil will be substantial.


BTW, reducing pistol powders does not cause magical pressure spikes. This is a myth.

 

[iShoot17]

I'm with Mad Chemist on this one. As much as I enjoy shooting the LCR, there is now doubt that some more weight on that little sucker would help on any felt recoil.

As far as downgrading that load.. I'm not sure I would do that. Perhaps instead of making choices before hand, have your Mother try the loads. Tell her you're trying to find one that she is comfortable with, and in turn need her help. I'd say put her behind the GP100, slap a couple rounds in the cylinder and let her have at a target. If she shoots and doesn't like it, then you know you have to go another route. If she doesn't seem to mind it, then play with the idea of the smaller revolver.

In either sense, a 158gr cast bullet flying under the 700fps barrier is still going to do something to a coyote. I'm sure your Mother doesn't care if it dies there or somewhere deep in the woods after the coyote tells his buddy Nana just shot me with a cute little gun. As long as Todo is okay, I'm sure she will be happy!

Good on you though for doing this. I applaud you for helping her and trying to keep her happy, active, and not defenseless.

 

[Edarnold]

One word of warning to the OP: do NOT try light loads with the jacketed bullets you have! Hornaday's manual specifically warns against using the 158gr JHP for anything less than maximum loads in the .38 Special. Because the bore friction of a jacketed bullet is much greater than that of a lubricated lead bullet, light loads with the jacketed bullet may leave you with a bullet stuck in the barrel: the downside of that situation is obvious.

On the upside, my recoil-sensitive wife shoots a 2" barreled 12ounce Colt Agent with no problem, using a 158gr. LRN bullet over 3.2gr. of WW231. Stepping up to 3.5 gr. is too uncomfortable for her for more than a few shots. Your wife's reaction may vary, but this load will work for low recoil.

 

[Dudedog]

If it needs to be really light and the 158 recoil is to much with 3.2 of 231/HP38 you might try going to a 125gr or even a 105gr bullet.
MBC has these in BHN 12.

As a side note a SWC or cone type bullet would work better if you needed to use it on a coyote. IMO

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=156&category=5&secondary=9&keywords=

NOTE: If you go to a lighter bullet you will need to adjust the powder charge, to match listed loads.

 

[TimSr]

I loaded up some of the 158gr LSWC bullets w/3.2gr W231 as suggested. They all made it out of my 6" GP100 barrel. Pretty soft, but need to try in the lighter gun to verify. I wouldn't call it .22 recoil, but it was very mild. Interesting that POI wasn't much different at 15 yds. Don't know why, but I was expecting them to just drop like rocks - probably would from a little further back?

I'm glad you found this load with the components you had on hand.

Point of imact goes up as velocity declines, but at 15 yards, its not going to be very noticeable. At 25 yards, it will be VERY noticeable.

Does the short barreled gun have fixed sights? I've found most fixed sights .38s are sighted with large slow bullets heights.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Wow, all this posts about "downgrading loads" and dangerous light loads! It's obvious those who said that didn't check the data that was posted because if they did they would have seen it's on the low end of the published data but it is published. No one here is advocating dropping the charge weights below tested data. Wow...

Gota love the Internet!

 

[WestKentucky]

Archangel I'd you start looking at "cowboy loads" then some of those run right down. To really scary loads, as in a firecracker literally has more power. I'm not so sure that if you search hard enough that you can't find a 38 ultralight load that isn't much more than a primer with some filler pushing a grossly undersized projectile.

And to OP. Powders quite often do really wierd things at extremely low pressures. Just like you should ladder test a load from min to max, you need to do the same going down, especially if you even consider getting out of cowboy territory (which I suggest you don't go lower than published cowboy data). At low pressure powder may not completely burn and in some cases might leave you with a squib, then a detonation on your next shot. Certainly if you can't verify a bullet left the bore every shot clear the gun and check the barrel. Do not ever attempt to "shoot out a stuck bullet.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Archangel I'd you start looking at "cowboy loads" then some of those run right down. To really scary loads, as in a firecracker literally has more power. I'm not so sure that if you search hard enough that you can't find a 38 ultralight load that isn't much more than a primer with some filler pushing a grossly undersized projectile.

Why are you changing the thread to fit a different scenario? I never mentioned "Cowboy Loads" and would not suggest the OP use a Cowboy load in this case. Anyone can change the situation to fit what they want to talk about but don't suggest I was incorrect when answering a completely different question from the one you just made up.

 

[WestKentucky]

Then don't suggest people are using dangerous loads because they are under published minimum when they fall into a category of published loads known as cowboy loads....I didn't make up a question, I took his intent, rationalized it, and went the direction which seemed most likely to help the poster.

 

[1KPerDay]

My recent results in a similar search for any interested

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=765345

 

[denverrdan]

My favorite target load is a hard cast 158 gr SWC and 3.3 grains of bullseye.

 

[BSA1]

CMV,

Warning thread hijack.

Since you mentioned that Mom is worried about recoil there is another choice worth considering;

22 Magnum snubbie revolver either the Taurus M-941 and the Ruger LCR are ideal for this problem.

The 22 Magnum such as the Speer Gold Dot way outperforms more than what you would expect from a small bore cartridge. It performs well on the critters I have shot. It is also a effective self-defense cartridge against two-legged coyotes. Several rounds in the chest would make someone mighty sick. Out of a snubbie it has little recoil but is a little loud (no such thing as a free lunch).

I have no idea what your Mom's and your financial situation is so this may not fit in your budget.

 

[CMV]

BSA1 - excellent suggestion. We were heading down the 22LR/22MAG route but a .22 revolver is about the same $ as a .38 revolver. My thinking is if she decides she does want something with more oomph once she's accustomed to it instead of buying a new gun, just switch ammo.

I also think this is more of a 'peace of mind' type deal. I don't know if coyotes are commonly running up on people snatching their pets off leashes, but I would assume that it is a fear based on a very uncommon occurrence. I'd hate for some yahoo to tell her that a .22 isn't enough to fend off a coyote & then that peace of mind is gone. Nobody will tell her that with a .38 (they wouldn't know it's a powder puff load)

Someone previously mentioned the LCRx is a polymer frame. I didn't realize that but makes sense that's why it's so lightweight. Maybe I need to look for a J frame model 60 or SP101 for that same compact size & a little more heft? Don't want to stray too far off the reloading topic, but not sure what else to look for. Taurus is questionable quality - some are great, some are lemons & I don't know enough about the brand to know what models are generally good & what models are better to avoid (or maybe their revolvers are great but their automatics are troublesome?). I think Charter, Rossi, Armscor, etc are even 'iffier' than Taurus but don't know since I don't own one. I really don't know much about wheelguns in general since of the zillion firearms I own only one is a revolver, but I think it's generally hard to go wrong with a Ruger or SW revolver. Not at all opposed to buying something used, so an older out of production gun like a Colt would be fine too. Want a 3" barrel, but 2" min & 4" max. Also want DA/SA (or do you just call it DA unless you specifically mean DAO for a revolver?) & not a SA 'cowboy' type.

I don't much care about price. Not shopping for a mint Python by any means, but I assume there's plenty out there in the $600 & under range that meets those criteria. $200 is fine, but if the right gun is $600, then that's what it costs. The DA revolver is a must though for simplicity. No messing with a safety, no remembering to cock the hammer (SA), no racking the slide, no controls like a slide or mag release, no fumbling to load a magazine, no wondering if it's loaded or not, simple to maintain, etc.

 

[TfflHndn]

If you want light recoil in a used revolver, keep a lookout for a used Smith .32. I have a couple, one made in 327 Federal and one in 32 Long. Very manageable recoil, while offering more pop than a 22lr or 22mag. Used prices aren't bad, since a lot of folks don't believe a 32 is worth having, but in the 32 long or 32 H&R it is respectable, especially for a coyote, and good ammo can be found if you don't want to reload it.

I also have an LCR in 22mag, and it has the worst trigger of any gun I have ever owned. Unless I got a bad example, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who didn't have good hand strength.

 

[BSA1]

CMV,

I like to compare the 22 Magnum from a handgun to Wasp stings.

For most of us one Wasp sting is a painful attention getter. Generally it is not lethal but for some people like my Dad a single sting can be lethal unless they get proper medical treatment / medicine within a short time period.

Now consider getting attack by a swarm of angry Wasps. Now even the average person is facing a life threatening danger. Multiple Wasp stings can and do kill adults.

One round of 22 Magnum is certainly a attention getter. Placed in the right area it is lethal. The shooter can significantly increase the chances of killing the intended target by firing multiple rounds (swarm of angry Wasps). With the Taurus that is eight rounds of angry Wasps.

In regards to TffLndn comments double action rimfire revolvers do seem to have heavier trigger pulls. That is the nature of the best for most J-Frame size revolvers. I can’t comment on the Ruger. My Taurus double action trigger pull is heavy but single action is very manageable.

Taurus revolvers unfortunately do have a deserved reputation for inconsistent quality control. I posted my experience with my M-941. However after a few drops of oil and removing a flash burr that was rubbing on the trigger I have a very accurate, high quality handgun.

The 32 Magnum is a great round. Mom might like a Ruger Single-Six especially with the birdshead grip. Being single action the trigger pull can be tuned for her liking. The only problem is they are out of production so you will have to hunt the used gun market. Folks that have them seem to really like them though.

Governor Rick Perry shot and killed a coyote using a laser sighted Ruger .380 while walking his dog a few years ago but Mom probably will not like the recoil from the slide.

We went through a long process finding the right handgun for my wife as she has weak wrists and some disability from carpal tunnel in both of them. Her perfect packing pistol has turned to be a Colt Police Positive Special. The P.P.S. has a much lighter double action trigger pull than other snubbies and the S&W K-Frame. Alas it can only be found on the used gun market.

I am sorry if I took your question so far off track.

p.s. I once bounced a 148 gr. lead wadcutter target load off of the skull of a opossum once at close right for a 4" barrel revolver. All it did was make him really, really angry! That is reason I bumped my load to 4.0 gr. of W-231.

 

[RPegram]

My daughter and I love shooting my loads in a very inexpensive Rossi. Recoil is light and accuracy is great. I Don't like them in an airweight S&W. The airweight is so light, anything is stinging after a few rounds. Oh, forgot to mention, my daughter started shooting when she was 11 or 12 and has put over 1,000 rounds of lswc's down range in 38spc. She also loves our SR9, but until I got a 550b, I couldn't load as fast as she could shoot!

I tried unsuccessfully to load a "light" round for the airweight, but gave up. It is so light, anything that can make it 50' after leaving the barrel stings after a few rounds. The Rossi, because of weight, is a pleasure to shoot.

 

[Mad Chemist]

You really have to go with HBWC if you want to make a truly "light" load in an airweight or polymer revolver. I use 2.7gr Bullseye with Hornady 148gr HBWC.

With a steel j-frame there are many more "light" options using multiple bullet types. There are plenty of options for 158gr SWC loads that won't buck too hard from a steel j frame

The SP101 is a great gun but it is much larger and heavier than a J frame.

 

[CMV]

The SP101 is a great gun but it is much larger and heavier than a J frame.

Shows how much I know about wheelguns I thought they were about the same size/weight

 

[Mad Chemist]

The SP101 is a little larger than a J frame but is almost twice the weight. That extra weight really tames the recoil of a .38spl.