Need advice on what to buy for Home Defense

[Furncliff]

You have the dogs. Great start.
I favor carbine style weapons shooting a pistol round. There are several available. The one I would choose is the Hi Point 4595
http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/carbines/carbines_45caliber.html
It's inexpensive (under 300), the one I have is reliable. It's easy to shoot and your wife will not mind practicing with it because it has a recoil system that really dampens the felt recoil, my 120# daughter enjoys it. Comes with a No BS guarantee. It set up so that you can hang flash lights and laser sights on it. It will shoot +P ammo which will be a plus for the self defense situation. Being shorter than most shotguns it's easier to maneuver in tight places. It's longer than the pistol barrel so the bullet will pick up a small amount of extra speed.

Save some money on your gun purchase and get some ammo and find a good trainer.

Then practice.

 

[kayak-man]

I haven't read the entire thread, so if this has already been covered, I apologize.

From what I've read, it sounds like you want something for when you are indoors, defending your abode, and something for confronting a person trying to break into storage container XLY. Thats good because it is probably going to be a lot safer staying inside, than it is to go looking for the bad guy. For this aplication, I'd recomend a shotgun. I think both the Mossberg 500 and Remington 870's are pretty good.

I hesitate to ask this question but does any single individual on this site have the slightest respect for Hi point and their "very affordable" USA made equipment?

Actually, yes. I am a fan of the Hi-Points. I haven't shot mine for a while, mainly because its a 45, and 9mm is easier on the wallet (mines the pistol, by the way, not the carbine.) I think that the Hi-Points are good guns, just really, really ugly. You'll find they create a lot of controversy, but I think a lot of the negative reviews of them are from people who have never actually owned one.

I've heard good things about thier carbines.

Whatever you get, make sure that you practise with it. I know you said you're not a "gun guy" but try shooting matches at one of the local ranges, once you get comfortable shooting. I've started shooting some of the "falling plate" matches, and even if I only shoot through 2 boxes of ammo, I find that I'm improving a lot better than in the past when I'd go through 5 boxes in one range session.

You might want to look into some training. Theres a difference between being able to shoot a gun, and being able to "fight" with a gun. One is just accuracy, the other is everything. Don't get me wrong, accuracy is worth a lot, but in a "working" gun, you also should be able to reload quickly, clear malfunctions, move while shooting, stuff like that.

I'm going to stop now, because I feel like I'm starting to get on a bit of a preachy ramble, but if I was unclear on anything, I can try to explain it better for ya.

I think I'm a little late, but...

Welcome to The High Road!

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[oldfool]

as usual, SAM1911 has done a fine job of trying to keep it from going off the rail here

but let's remember folks that OP is a 'beginner' and a pricey AR (or even an AK) is maybe not best choice for his 1st (I do think he mentioned $500, by the way)

I do not disagree with the "non-over-penetration" of the typical 223, but if going carbine, any service caliber handgun round can go thru an interior wall, as Sam said, and pistol calibers move faster out of a carbine than out of 2" to 6" barrels, fact.. fast enough for sure

yeah, I would not wish a good friend the opportunity to raise da' Judge specter here..
but glad somebody did bring up Hi-Point..

Face it, they are extremely affordable and they go bang reliably, pistola or carbine either one. A young family lady (very inexperienced, but we workin' on that) shoots a Hi-Point 40 S&W carbine real well, very easy to shoot, killed her 1st whitetail with one, at modest range (at lot farther than "indoors"), with one shot. I don't need or want one, but they work. You/he/she could do a LOT worse.

alas..
"Pistols are easier for inexperienced people to shoot than revolvers"

Striker fired DA or DAO maybe, if enough weight & length with both/either.
But revolvers only care if you put the right caliber in 'em. They don't much care what power factor or bullet shape it is. Either can malfunction, but the most common malfunction with a wheelie only requires pulling the trigger a 2nd time... and that's actually rare with any centerfire ammo

me, being me, just had to throw that in there, you know

 

[Ranger30-06]

Your criteria are screaming for a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870. You can get either for under $350 and plenty of practice ammo. I would recommend loading 2 non-lethal bean bag rounds, then buckshot rounds in the rest of the tube. Throw a couple slugs in your pocket and you'll be set should you need to stop something a little larger, say a car or van. Whatever you do, do not use birdshot. It has no penetration at all which means your bad guy is still going to be moving after taking a hit.

Handguns would be a little harder to shoot under stress, but if you choose one of them I would go with the others and recommend a revolver in .357 Magnum loaded with .38 Special +P's

 

[oldfool]

One more thing mebbe not said here (?), that any new shooter ought at least be aware of
Shooting a pumper 12 ga (or any gauge pumper) in the field, and shooting one under stress is a different thing, even though the intimidation factor and/or close range stopping power has few if any equals

Well known fact that folks under stress and in a hurry to not die too young sometimes short-stroke 'em; real easy done.
If you must 'commit', commit with vigor.
Point-n-click always was tough to beat, be it revolver or pistola flavor; always aim and mind your backdrop

 

[oldfool]

welcome to THR Ranger 30-06 !
(and not just because you suggest 38/357s)

 

[Ranger30-06]

welcome to THR Ranger 30-06 !
(and not just because you suggest 38/357s)

Thank you! The .357 is certainly one of the best cartridges out there! Tried and true a thousand times over! I am very knowledgeable when bullet/pellet penetration comes into play, especially with shotguns and handguns so please feel free to hammer me with any questions!

 

[Reasoned1]

Lots of great advice. Since it sounds like you're on a tight budget, I recommend the following shotgun/pistol combination if you're looking to buy new: Mossberg Maverick 88 in 12 gauge ($200) and a Stoeger Cougar in 9mm or .40 caliber ($375)--for a grand total of $575 (minus transfer fees or taxes) for some fine and reliable weapons on the cheap. You'll find these prices at Bud's Gun Shop online, which is about the best you can do.

 

[oldfool]

R 30-06
yeah, well, I am a self confessed fan of old S&W k-frame 357s, the pert-near-perfect 38+P handgun.. (not that there are not multiple other worthy contenders)

but my screen name was chosen with appropriate forethought, so...

 

[Mike1234567]

One more thing mebbe not said here (?), that any new shooter ought at least be aware of
Shooting a pumper 12 ga (or any gauge pumper) in the field, and shooting one under stress is a different thing, even though the intimidation factor and/or close range stopping power has few if any equals

Well known fact that folks under stress and in a hurry to not die too young sometimes short-stroke 'em; real easy done.
If you must 'commit', commit with vigor.
Point-n-click always was tough to beat, be it revolver or pistola flavor; always aim and mind your backdrop

Yeah... SLAM that pump front-to-back and back-to-front, baby!!

 

[vellocet]

Seems posts 65 and 66 are the most practical. The OP was not for dogs or such, just firearms for people with little experience or money. Revolvers and pumps. Why were lawyers and the law even mentioned? Talk about off-thread.

 

[Sam1911]

Why were lawyers and the law even mentioned? Talk about off-thread.

Because what gun is only a small -- and relatively minor -- part of the self-defense equation, and here we strive to remember that, and to give better, more complete answers.

Just as the fact that someone has a gun doesn't mean they're ready to defend themself, neither does the fact that they have the ability to shoot someone mean they understand the critical principles of lawful self defense.

At THR, we strive to give the most complete answers and guidance to these kinds of questions. Especially when helping someone completely new to this area of study, we try to share what they need to know, not just answer the most limited of questions: "which gun?"

 

[230therapy]

I would say get a handgun first. The reason is that you can conceal it while you're working the property. It is very important to have a gun with you at all times given your situation (storage facility, unknown people moving around freely onsite, lots of property stored there).

If you have only a $500 budget, then look into used guns. J&G Sales offers used S&W revolvers in 38 Special for under $300 (it will be more because you have to add shipping and transfer). You should also look at used Glocks in 9x19mm (Glock 19 or 17).

Check out CDNN Investments...they sell many used guns.

 

[vellocet]

That's all well and fine, Sam, but it is still off-thread.

 

[Sam1911]

That's all well and fine, Sam, but it is still off-thread.

You mean "off-topic?" That's in the eye of the beholder, and the beholders that be have not seen it to be so.

 

[hermannr]

For your question about less recoil for your wife. 2 3/4" chamber 20 guage shotgun (instead of a 3" 12 guage) will have less recoil, and still do the job of intimidating the BG, and if necessary stop him. Cylinder bore.

As you are new to firearms, I would go with #4 or even #6 bird shot rather than buck shot. The more pellets down range the better chance of a hit. As you should only be firing at very close range, bird shot will incapacitate the BG, and will not travel as far, or do as much damage, as buch shot.

I am also of the pump shotgun persuasion. Racking a shotgun can scare the BG. No guarantee it will, but it sure can. That sound is very distinctive.

Caution with a rifle and pistol...you are responsible for where that bullet/shot ends up. In an urban area you have to be very careful with a rifle that will send a projectile 1 to 3 MILES if fired at the "correct" angle.

As for a pistol, the pistol you have with you, and can use with confidence, is the correct one. You are mostly worried about thugs, not crazies. Most thugs are like bullies, weak and spineless when they know they will get hurt.

BTW: I totally agree with Sam, KNOW the law as applies to your situation!!!!

 

[Hocka Louis]

12 ga. Mossberg Security Combo (18-1/2" barrel/28" barrel set) with Remington #0 Buckshot (little less recoil than #00 buckshot loads and better pellet size) for security. Practice with the bigger one shooting trap and maybe a little skeet with the short-barrel and the appropriate ammo.

 

[TJ AK-74]

Several things:
1. Handguns can be carried without people noticing, shotguns cannot.

2. 28" 12ga. shotguns are LOUD, 18" 12ga. are DEAFENING.

3. Pistol-grip shotguns are sorta-but-not-really-concealable, harder to aim, and KICK VERY HARD. :banghead: I definitely recommend NOT getting one.

4. Trying to hit small animals with a handgun is hard; Blasting them with a shotgun is easy. If varmints are a problem, get a single-shot shotgun (several are available for around $100, maybe less) or a pump, if you have the money for it AFTER you get a handgun (or 2).

5. It is hard to hit a target that you can't see. Get a 3D-cell LED Maglite for $30 @ Home Depot, or a Surefire. Also, consider a gun-mounted light.

6. Police trade Glocks are good deals, usually around $400, and some have nite-sites and a rail for light/laser.

7. Charter Arms and Taurus revolvers are cheap and simple, but recoil more than semi-autos.

8. Surplus military guns are another option. JGSales.com has Polish P-64's in 9X18mm for $180 + shipping + FFL fee. (Probably under $250 total)

9. Buying 2 handguns @ 1 time from an FFL puts your name in a permanent database as a multiple handgun purchaser.

10. 1 handgun for you and 1 handgun for fiance' is ideal.

11. If possible, let her handle the gun you intend for her to use BEFORE buying it.

12. Test-fire whatever semi-auto handgun you buy with whatever Hollow-Point/Self-Defense rounds you intend to use in it, to ensure functionality (some autos are more picky than others).

13. I like Hi-Points and I own 1

In summary, it would be great to buy 2 Glocks, both with mounted flashlights, and a nice Remington 870 with a couple different barrels and mounted light. Total cost = $1200-1500

But for now, I would either get 1 Glock with a light ($500) and save up for a second one. Or get a a couple revolvers ($2-300 ea),Hi-Points ($150-200 ea), or P-64's ($225-ish ea) etc. and a good flashlight.

 

[Daniel]

oldfool,

That's why I say a double barrel break action for the new shooters who want something for defense; it's easy to see if it's loaded or not, easy to load/unload it, and they point very well when shouldered (as do most long arms). Safe and effective, and it won't take that long to learn to be effective with it (compare to say, a pump, auto or pistol). It took me all of one range session to be good enough with a shotgun (with continued training to be more than adequate), whereas with a pistol, it took a couple of years.

Something that's rarely said: read your local criminal code on self-defense. I did Criminal Justice, and we focused on self-defense for a long time; it's fairly straight forward to understand it.

 

[stuckinsocal]

Your criteria are screaming for a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870. You can get either for under $350 and plenty of practice ammo. I would recommend loading 2 non-lethal bean bag rounds, then buckshot rounds in the rest of the tube. Throw a couple slugs in your pocket and you'll be set should you need to stop something a little larger, say a car or van. Whatever you do, do not use birdshot. It has no penetration at all which means your bad guy is still going to be moving after taking a hit.

Handguns would be a little harder to shoot under stress, but if you choose one of them I would go with the others and recommend a revolver in .357 Magnum loaded with .38 Special +P's

Why??? Firearms are deadly force and should be treated as such. If you're pulling a gun on someone or even firing it at him, it should only be because he's presenting an immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death and needs to be stopped immediatley. Less than lethal rounds were not intended for that and shouldn't be counted on to do that.

+1 on the M1 too. You can get one from the CMP for $495 and surplus ammo in clips is pretty cheap from the CMP. The surplus ammo would be good for practice and there are good quality .30-06 hunting rounds that would pretty much eliminate over penetration. A better (but more expensive) option would be a Mini 14/30. I like the tactical models with the shorter thicker barrel and flash supressor. They come with 20 rnd mags and there are plenty of options for .223 and 7.62x39 for defensive rounds that don't over penetrate.

 

[Ranger30-06]

Why??? Firearms are deadly force and should be treated as such. If you're pulling a gun on someone or even firing it at him, it should only be because he's presenting an immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death and needs to be stopped immediatley. Less than lethal rounds were not intended for that and shouldn't be counted on to do that

Stuckinsocal: I recommend less than lethal ammunition because If you are able to subdue a crook without doing any permanent harm, you have absolutely 0 worries about what the cops will do or if you will have your gun taken etc. I do recommend backing it up with live ammo though because some people won't give up and/or are intent on doing harm. In short: 2 chances to chill out or else its serious time!

 

[Sam1911]

+1 on the M1 too. You can get one from the CMP for $495 and surplus ammo in clips is pretty cheap from the CMP. The surplus ammo would be good for practice and there are good quality .30-06 hunting rounds that would pretty much eliminate over penetration.

What in the world are people recommending an M1 for home defense for? A 4 foot long HEAVY full-power rifle is an awesome tool for shooting enemy troops coming over the trenches, but not AT ALL optimal for manuvering in your home, through doors, carrying discreetly, or stopping a threat without grossly excessive collateral damage. Further, even if it WAS a good idea, finding one in the OPs budget is highly unlikely these days.

Even further, and as an aside, without some modifications an M1 cannot be safely used to fire commercial hunting ammo. The pressure curve of modern loaded stuff is too strong and the gun is very likely to be damaged.

Even further, hunting ammo eliminates over-penetration? Seriously? 150-180 gr. bullets traveling at nearly 3,000 fps. is about the direct OPPOSITE of limited over-penetration, regardless of which bullet is loaded in that case.

There have been some good hardware suggestions here, but this REALLY isn't one of them.

 

[Sam1911]

I recommend less than lethal ammunition because If you are able to subdue a crook without doing any permanent harm, you have absolutely 0 worries about what the cops will do or if you will have your gun taken etc

This is completely wrong. Dangerously so.

1) Less lethal ammo is extremely dangerous stuff. It can and often does cause death. Folks tasked with using it are given extensive training in how and when to use it to minimize that risk, but any time they're firing it at a person, it's in a situation where the death of that person is an acceptable risk. One of the conditions for "safer" use is distance. At home defense distances, you do not have that required space. Unloading your less-lethal shotgun rounds on someone from across-the-room distances will very likely kill them.

2) As stuckinsocal suggested, a firearm is lethal force. The police do not care at all what ammo you had loaded in the gun. If you fire that gun at someone, you are facing either a charge of Assault With A Deadly Weapon or manslaughter or murder, depending on the outcome. When you present your affirmative legal defense of "self-defense" you will be held to exactly the same standards as if that weapon was loaded with buckshot or a slug.

Less lethal ammo is a police or department of corrections tool for use in crowd/riot control under very specific circumstances. It has NO place in the toolset of a defensive-minded citizen.

 

[USAF_Vet]

RE: Hi Point.

I am a fan of the Hi Point firearms, having owned the 9mm carbine and still own the .45 pistol. For your $500 budget, you could get a matching set of pistol and carbine. If this is the way you go, I recommend the .45ACP because the pistol and carbine share the exact same magazine.

Hi Point Pros:

Reliable mine has fired every round I've ever put in it. It isn't picky about stee case, brass case, aluminum case, FMJ, JHP, steel core lead core, etc. As long as it's a .45 cartridge, it will go bang.

Accurate Fixed barrel makes point of impact very close to point of aim. On both pistol and carbine, at typical HD distances, if you can see the target in your sights, pull the trigger, there will be a hole there.

Affordable I too had a budget for each firearm purchase. For your stated budget, you could take home the pair and some ammo for practice. .45 pistol can be had brand new for about $180 after taxes. Carbine is a little more expensive, but can be had new for around $300.

Sights The pistol has some decent factory sights. Not quite hi viz night sights, but I can pick them out in low light conditions. Carbine has fully adjustable rifle sights, but can take a full array of optics.

Accessories The carbine is easier to accessorize if you feel you need to have a light, laser, scope, etc. Standard size picatinny rails cover the thing. The pistol has a rail, but only accepts Hi Point light and laser. For the pistol, I'd skip the laser, but the light might be worth looking into.

Warranty their warranty is unbeatable. If it breaks, any time or for any reason (aside from abuse) send it in and they'll fix it for free. You cover shipping, but you get free magazines to cover the cost. However, I've never had to send mine in. Also, made in the USA, giving American jobs to American workers.


Hi Point Cons:

Ugly Yeah. Not the prettiest thing to look at. Not the barbecue gun. I'm not concerned with the cosmetics of the gun as long as I find it to be reliable.

Heavy A fully loaded .45 is not light, but I don't find it overbearing to hold and shoot one handed with my arm extended. I'm a bigger guy, fairly strong, so the weight doesn't bother me.

Recoil The straight blowback design increases the recoil, but a lot of that is absorbed by the weight of the slide. The carbine is also a straight blowback, but the recoil is much more manageable with a long gun than the pistol. Still, with the pistol, I can mag dump all 9 rounds into a paper plate at 7-10 yards and keep them all inside the target. If you can manage the weight, you can manage the recoil.

Low magazine capacity Standard Hi Point magazines will never hold more than 10 rounds. The .45 only holds 9. That may or may not be a deal breaker. there are aftermarket mags that hold 15 rounds, but take them with a grain of salt. My factory mags have never let me down. Next time I spy some 1911 mags for dirt cheap, I'll pick them up. 8 round + 1911 mags can be modified to work in a Hi Point .45. Again, though, remember the grain of salt.

So, IMO, the cons are outweighed by the pros. My Hi Point .45 is my nightstand gun.

Still, there is something to be said about a 12 gauge shotgun. Be it a semi, pump, side by side, over/ under or single shot. The shotgun is the jack of all trades of the gun world.

 

[Odd Job]

If that was me I would get a .357 Mag revolver and start myself and the missus off on .38 Special loads.
If there was money available I would get a 12-gauge semi-auto shotgun.
I say semi-auto because of my experience with pumps when doing a two day shotgun course in South Africa (this involved firing under stress).
I found that when standing stationary and using the pump, all was fine. So did the other guys on the course. But when moving and shooting under stress, in confined simulated multi-room range, there was short cycling.
In my opinion, the revolver and the semi-auto shotgun are good choices for people who don't have a lot of experience with guns and who are not likely to get many opportunities to see how they handle their firearms under stress.
Keep it simple as possible, reduce training requirements, have a weapon that goes bang each time the trigger is pulled.