Need comparison of .45LC and .454 Casull

[Col. Plink]

Hey y'all,

Just need a word or two from those that know about these two cartridges and their terminal ballistics, whether performance outweighs availability/difficulty of procurement, etc.

Considering a pistol-carbine combo and have seen some interesting offerings in both. Am also looking to make sure I don't shortchange the carbine side of the equation with a lesser cartridge.

Thanks in advance!

 

[TimSr]

454 is a longer version of 45LC. Both cartridges can be fired from a 454. (460SW is an even longer version and fires all 3)

Balistically, if you take a Ruger/Contender only load and add about 500fps to the same bullet weight, you have a 454 Casull.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

If money is no object, I'd have one of these to go with my S&W 460V. But money is an object, so I think I'll buy windows for my house instead.
http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/big-horn-armory-products/model-90-carbine-460-sandw-model-90a-454-casull-6/

I've shot a lot of 45 Colt and 454 Casull. The obvious benefit to a 454 Casull is range, and penetration on dangerous critters, though a warm 45 Colt will penetrate plenty fine.

I readily find 454 Casull ammo in my area at every shop, though it is never cheap. It runs about a $1.30 per shot for Hornady stuff.

It comes down to what are you shooting, how far are you shooting it from, and how important is the cost of ammo to you. I went the 460 route because I can shoot all three, and even 45 Schofield if I find any. Though in a 4 lb revolver or an 8 pound rifle, it wouldn't even feel like shooting big bore.

 

[CraigC]

Tier 1 .45 Colt - 260gr at 900fps and 14,000psi - most guns chambering the cartridge.

Tier 2 .45 Colt - 260gr at 1100fps and 22,000psi - 2nd and 3rd generation Colt's, late model replicas, post-war S&W N-frames and Ruger New Vaqueros. Modern 1873 rifles.

Tier 3 .45 Colt - 260gr at 1400fps and 32,000psi - large frame Ruger Blackhawks, Vaqueros, Colt Anaconda, Dan Wesson, T/C. Plus Marlin 1894 and Winchester 1894.

Tier 4 .45 Colt - 260gr at 1600fps and 55,000psi - custom five-shot Ruger single actions and Redhawks. Plus modern 1892 rifles.

.454Casull - 260gr at near 2000fps and 65,000psi

 

[Ed Ames]

Hey y'all,

Just need a word or two from those that know about these two cartridges and their terminal ballistics, whether performance outweighs availability/difficulty of procurement, etc.

Considering a pistol-carbine combo and have seen some interesting offerings in both. Am also looking to make sure I don't shortchange the carbine side of the equation with a lesser cartridge.

Thanks in advance!

The .45c and .454 cas are my personal favorite revolver rounds, and I also have a lever carbine that will fire both. I could wax poetical but you already have good info from other posters. Instead what I'll say is that the range of available ammo has really expanded over the last 10 years. A lot of folks dismiss the Taurus Judge but it put .45c back on the map as a self defense cartridge, the way Ruger put it on the map as a handloader's big game hunting cartridge.

.45c is mainstream enough to show up in Walmart and Academy. .454 is more a Cabela's level cartridge. I have never had any real trouble getting either one. Both are easy to find reloading components for.

The only "ugly truth" about it isn't exactly hidden: recoil at higher power levels is intense.

If money is no object, I'd have one of these to go with my S&W 460V. But money is an object, so I think I'll buy windows for my house instead.
http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalo...-90-carbine-460-sandw-model-90a-454-casull-6/

Are they actually making those? If so I may decide to keep my .460es and buy a companion lever gun. The last company I saw advertising a .460 lever gun quietly took it off their web page after building a prototype.

 

[usfan]

Hey y'all,

Just need a word or two from those that know about these two cartridges and their terminal ballistics, whether performance outweighs availability/difficulty of procurement, etc.

Considering a pistol-carbine combo and have seen some interesting offerings in both. Am also looking to make sure I don't shortchange the carbine side of the equation with a lesser cartridge.

Thanks in advance!

I went through this process. I was planning on getting the smith xvr in 460, but then saw the new ruger 4", 45acp/45colt, in a big redhawk. the hot ruger loads convinced me that i don' t need anything bigger.

So then the rifle. I saw a fair price in a rossi 454, & sprung for that. I loaded up some middle range 454 to shoot through them, & decided this was plenty of firepower, too. The hot 45colt loads are pretty easy in the rifle, but i can't shoot too many 454 loads without a slip on pad. So for me, this is a good max combo, & i'm still getting the feel of different powders, bullets, & the ranges & accuracy of each. No 460 in my future! ..not even a 454 pistol. The hot 45c in the redhawk is more than enough. They exceed my 44 mag (8" SS redhawk) in felt recoil.

I kind of have this duplicated in 44 mag, and also 357, but i'm liking this combo the best, for the highest power in each weapon.

You can also shoot the mild cas 45c loads, which are like the 44spl or the 38spl in the other calibers. But there is some awesome ballistics in hurling that honking 300+ grain projectile from the 454. Too much for me in a pistol, but it works in the rifle.

 

[Ed Ames]

... but i can't shoot too many 454 loads without a slip on pad.

On top of the recoil-absorbing rubber pad the .454 version of these rifles come with from the factory.

I think I could make a reasonable argument that if you could only own two firearms, usfan's m92 clone and Redhawk would be an excellent choice. They cover the gammut from squirrel hunting up to feral pigs or deer, from paper targets to self defense. They are not too expensive.

With a spring kit and some fluff and buff the m92 clone becomes a slick little gun with surprising firepower and authority.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Are they actually making those? If so I may decide to keep my .460es and buy a companion lever gun. The last company I saw advertising a .460 lever gun quietly took it off their web page after building a prototype.

As far as I know they are. I've been keeping an eye on them for a few years. They had their 500 magnum lever gun for sale for quite a long time, and a 460 mag gun was discussed in their FAQ section. They said that they were working on developing the gun, but weren't rushing it as they wanted to make sure it would feed and fire 45C, 454, and 460 reliably. About 8 months to a year ago, I saw they finally listed one.

I think they pretty much just build their guns one at a time per order. No production guns, so if you were to order one, it would certainly be a rare piece. I want one terribly bad, but like I said, I can't afford one right now. Maybe in the future. I frequent Wyoming, and love it there, so I'd really like to pick up a FA revolver and one of these guns at some point.

A word of warning. Last year I bought a Ruger No. 1 with a 22" barrel. They don't make them anymore, so I got real lucky to find one NIB. It's basically my grail rifle for it's uniqueness. With full power 460 loads, it is a punishing gun to shoot. I was really surprised, but I don't have much experience shooting rifles, so maybe I'm a sissy. I imagine the Bighorn 460 lever gun is pretty stout recoiling as well.

Sorry for the thread drift Col. Plink. Don't mean to hijack your thread.

 

[usfan]

On top of the recoil-absorbing rubber pad the .454 version of these rifles come with from the factory.

I think I could make a reasonable argument that if you could only own two firearms, usfan's m92 clone and Redhawk would be an excellent choice. They cover the gammut from squirrel hunting up to feral pigs or deer, from paper targets to self defense. They are not too expensive.

With a spring kit and some fluff and buff the m92 clone becomes a slick little gun with surprising firepower and authority.

Yes, IN ADDITION to the stock pad!

But i also put a hogue grip on the redhawk.. pics in this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9970248&postcount=71

The hard wood grips look good, but didn't help much with the recoil. I'm not particularly averse to recoil, but neither do i like abuse!

I do agree that this is a pretty good combo, for a pistol & rifle in the same caliber.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Hey y'all,

Just need a word or two from those that know about these two cartridges and their terminal ballistics, whether performance outweighs availability/difficulty of procurement, etc.

Considering a pistol-carbine combo and have seen some interesting offerings in both. Am also looking to make sure I don't shortchange the carbine side of the equation with a lesser cartridge.

Thanks in advance!

.45 ouch.
.454 OUCH!

 

[cfullgraf]

.45 ouch.
.454 OUCH!

Does that mean the 460 S&W Mag is OUCH

(Back on topic)

 

[Ohen Cepel]

The Freedom Arms .454 (can be had in other calibers) is a very fine revolver. I think the finest made in the US now and it makes for a very powerful yet easy to carry platform.

Well worth a look.

.454 really overshadows the LC kind of like .357 vs. .38. Not that any are bad, just depends on the intended use.

I'm a big fan of the .454 but think most (me also) would be fine with a .44 or .357 for most revolver needs.

 

[Malamute]

It depends on what you plan to do with it. If its just because you want one, thats enough reason, but it doesnt require a 454 to survive in most of the North American continent. I might decide one was worthwhile if I hung around coastal Alaska or Kodiak Island, but the grizzlies that live near me dont require 454's as far as I can tell.

BTW, have you seen that Ruger is now making a 5 shooter single action 454 and 480?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Does that mean the 460 S&W Mag is OUCH

(Back on topic)

Nah, it's not that bad. In fact it's a heck of a lot of fun.

 

[Deaf Smith]

One of the things I really like about my Toklat .454 is I can handload just anywhere along the .45 LC/.454 spectrum. 5 inch barrel is handy and my modified Ruger GP100 wood stocks make it mighty pretty to boot.

In a month or so it gets the NP-3 treatment to!

Deaf

 

[saltyyn1]

Used to work in a gun store, when I left the owner gave me a new BFR in 460. I tried to shoot 45 colt in it, but would not group. It is a tack driver with 460s. About a month before gun season I start shooting it once or twice a day. Any more & i'm afraid a flinch will develop. I did find a Ruger #1 to match it. After 9 shots the stock cracked in the wrist. Full power loads do kick about like a hot 45-70. Ruger did a great job and returned it 9 days after I mailed it to them. Both are great deer guns, but the BFR is too heavy to carry when carrying the rifle. Have not shot 454 in either.

 

[Ed Ames]

Nah, it's not that bad. In fact it's a heck of a lot of fun.

True stories:

I took my .460 and a few other guns to the local pistol range. I set up at one of the handful of 25 yard lanes. Guy takes a lane next to me. I finish shooting a 1911 and fire one round of .460...

The guy next to me almost throws his pistol to the bench and starts yelling "those profanity profanity guns shouldn't even be allowed at this profanity range, you profanity profanity with your profanity issues and your profanity...." and packing up his stuff. He was still raging as he moved to the far end of the range.

Or...

I let a friend borrow my .460 because he was thinking about getting one. He buys two boxes of ammo (40rds), a special shooting glove, and goes to the range. A day or two later he returns the gun and his hand is bruised and swollen. He fired 40 rounds of commercial 460 ammo in one afternoon, wearing a gel recoil glove, and it took over a month for his injuries to heal and the pain to go away.

 

[CraigC]

.45 ouch.
.454 OUCH!

Not if you actually take the time to become proficient with them.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Not if you actually take the time to become proficient with them.

Hmmm, I suspect that statement is a double entendre.

Craig, tell that to the guys with permanent damage to their hand and wrist from years of firing full power loads. Fortunately I have not done that, but I have shot .44, .45 and .454 sufficiently to have the proficiency that few things that breath would be would be safe within 25 yards of me. There are not to many people who can fire 50 rounds of .454 through a Freedom Arms SA and say with a straight face that at the very least they were not thinking of a synonym for "ouch" during the last 10 rounds. Do that on a regular basis and you will be one of those guys mentioned above.

 

[usfan]

Hmmm, I suspect that statement is a double entendre.

Craig, tell that to the guys with permanent damage to their hand and wrist from years of firing full power loads. Fortunately I have not done that, but I have shot .44, .45 and .454 sufficiently to have the proficiency that few things that breath would be would be safe within 25 yards of me. There are not to many people who can fire 50 rounds of .454 through a Freedom Arms SA and say with a straight face that at the very least they were not thinking of a synonym for "ouch" during the last 10 rounds. Do that on a regular basis and you will be one of those guys mentioned above.

Not me! I can shoot 454 all day long.. well... that is, if i load them up as mild 45 colt loads!

I can handle a few stout loads, in 44 mag, 45colt, 454, or even big rifle & shotgun kicks, but more than a few is too many. I don't shoot those for volume fun, but to be adequate in shooting them. 12ga, 3.5" magnum loads or high powered rifle loads are fine in moderation.

But if someone wants to feel the pain of those kinds of loads, i'm all for it. They can win the 'most macho man' award, & i'll congratulate them. But i'd like to have some joints to use when i get real old (relative to just old, like i already am!).

 

[TimSr]

The Freedom Arms .454 (can be had in other calibers) is a very fine revolver. I think the finest made in the US now and it makes for a very powerful yet easy to carry platform.

Well worth a look.

The .454 Casull round and the Freedom Arms revolver to shoot it was a joint development released together. I fired one at a "gun fair" in CA in the 80's, and HAD TO have one because sometimes a 44 Mag just isn't big enough. I bought mine in 1989 in time for an Alaska black bear hunt. I got my bear, a hog, and a countless number of whitetails since that time. Truly the finest single action revolver on the planet. I recently saw a used one at a gun show priced at double what I paid back then.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

True stories:

I took my .460 and a few other guns to the local pistol range. I set up at one of the handful of 25 yard lanes. Guy takes a lane next to me. I finish shooting a 1911 and fire one round of .460...

The guy next to me almost throws his pistol to the bench and starts yelling "those profanity profanity guns shouldn't even be allowed at this profanity range, you profanity profanity with your profanity issues and your profanity...." and packing up his stuff. He was still raging as he moved to the far end of the range.

Or...

I let a friend borrow my .460 because he was thinking about getting one. He buys two boxes of ammo (40rds), a special shooting glove, and goes to the range. A day or two later he returns the gun and his hand is bruised and swollen. He fired 40 rounds of commercial 460 ammo in one afternoon, wearing a gel recoil glove, and it took over a month for his injuries to heal and the pain to go away.

Hmm, that's a good one about the angry range visitor. I guess you scared him good. About two years ago I was at an unmonitored outdoor pistol and rifle range, and I decided to practice shooting my 460V fast, as I do carry it on my hip in bear country with the aid of suspenders. With a 5" barrel, it is pretty well balanced for the job. I started off with some HSM 325gr loads and emptied the gun into the target at 10 yards as fast as I accurately could. When I finished I was looking at the target and I realized no one else was shooting anymore. I looked around me and saw that the other 4 shooters, all 20 or more feet away, were just staring at me. I don't know if it was the level of noise or that there were 5 rapidly fired shots of it in a row. I hollered sorry to the group and everyone went on shooting. After 20 more 200 gr rounds I realized one of the other shooters was standing behind me. He asked what I was shooting and I let him pop one off. He smiled and we had a nice chat.

That day I fired off 50 rounds of 460, 10 of which were 325 gr loads. I fired I believe 10 rounds of 454 Casull, and 100 rounds of 45C. I could definitely feel it eh next day in my hands, but had no ill effects. Everyone is different though, and the decelerator grip fits me well. Too bad your buddy had a bad time of it. I wonder if he was trying to fight the muzzle rise too much, rather than allowing his arms and torso to absorb the recoil.

 

[CraigC]

Hmmm, I suspect that statement is a double entendre.

Nope.

Craig, tell that to the guys with permanent damage to their hand and wrist from years of firing full power loads.

Where are these legions of shooters with nerve damage? I know a lot of guys that do a lot of shooting with these guns and only know of one with nerve damage. He's close to 80yrs old and has been doing it for a living for several decades.

Fortunately I have not done that, but I have shot .44, .45 and .454 sufficiently to have the proficiency that few things that breath would be would be safe within 25 yards of me.

So you agree that one can do enough shooting to become proficient but not so much as to have permanent damage? Good.

There are not to many people who can fire 50 rounds of .454 through a Freedom Arms SA and say with a straight face that at the very least they were not thinking of a synonym for "ouch" during the last 10 rounds. Do that on a regular basis and you will be one of those guys mentioned above.

If you can't get through 50rds, you're not doing enough of it. And doing enough of it to be toughened against recoil is not the path to nerve damage. Here's where I brag on the guy who tested the new Ruger .454 and .480 for putting nearly 5000rds through the .480 with mostly 300rd sessions.

If you do seek nerve damage, writing about it for a living and shooting them every day for 50yrs is probably a good start though.

 

[Ed Ames]

I hope this isn't a derailment on a thread about magnum .45c varients.

Hmm, that's a good one about the angry range visitor. I guess you scared him good. ...
That day I fired off 50 rounds of 460, 10 of which were 325 gr loads. I fired I believe 10 rounds of 454 Casull, and 100 rounds of 45C. I could definitely feel it eh next day in my hands, but had no ill effects. ... Too bad your buddy had a bad time of it. I wonder if he was trying to fight the muzzle rise too much, rather than allowing his arms and torso to absorb the recoil.

One of the factors may become clear when you see the attached photo. The gun in the middle is a full size 5" 1911 for scale.

Honestly, shooting the top revolver in this picture with buffalo bore 360gr lfn ammo without hurting yourself is a challenge. It has a high bore axis, heavy recoil, and nothing to help resist muzzle flip. If you don't manage the recoil it can easily twist your wrists around to point the gun back at you. That tends to make people lock up their joints and go rigid, which introduces a whole range of other issues. It is the only gun I own that I am reluctant to let others shoot, and when I have I generally load one round...not because of the cost of ammo.

I started out looking for a 5" .460 as a "do it all" gun. I wound up getting the pictured 2.75" gun "lightly used". Then I heard about, and found, the Alaskan. IMO the Alaskan is everything the .460es should be. They look very similar in the photos but the Alaskan is hugely more practical. I would trade the pictured. 460 plus cash for a 5" model, but honestly I'd probably be better off selling it and walking away from the .460 cartridge as more than I need.

My friend whose hand was still yellow and green weeks after borrowing the .460 in the picture? He immediately bought the 8" version and loves it.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Where are these legions of shooters with nerve damage? I know a lot of guys that do a lot of shooting with these guns and only know of one with nerve damage. He's close to 80yrs old and has been doing it for a living for several decades.

Craig, I will agree there are not “legions” of these guys to be found. Will you agree with me that my use of the plural “s” does not designate numbers in the thousands as the word “legions” does? The single individual to whom you refer is probably John Taffin. Almost everyone knows about his problem. If you do a little casual research you will find other shooters who have the same problem to varying degrees. Not being famous gun gurus means their problem does not get the degree of publicity Taffin’s does.

So you agree that one can do enough shooting to become proficient but not so much as to have permanent damage? Good.

Yippee! We have an unqualified agreement on an issue. Aw shucks, I guess we don’t. I forgot about my wife and other small statured persons who will never become proficient with a hot .45 or .454 because it just is not physically possible without injury. I know a 50 something woman who in her twenties carried a .44 Special because back in the 1970’s gun gurus said the .38 wasn’t good enough and the Charter Arms .44Sp Bulldog was great. Her right wrist is now a mess.

If you can't get through 50rds, you're not doing enough of it. And doing enough of it to be toughened against recoil is not the path to nerve damage. Here's where I brag on the guy who tested the new Ruger .454 and .480 for putting nearly 5000rds through the .480 with mostly 300rd sessions.

While body type and physical conditioning aid in management of recoil, recoil management is more about technique and mental conditioning than “toughening”. The slow progressive damage caused by heavy recoiling handguns is to some body parts you can’t really toughen up through physical conditioning. You can’t do much to strengthen weak bones in you hand and wrist, nor the nerves, sufficiently to overcome the problem even in the biggest of men. Bigger and stronger people just withstand more shooting before it happens. Speaking of bigger and stronger, I noticed as a youngman that as soon as I grew past 200lbs in body weight my tolerance for rifle recoil greatly increased. That however is for a different discussion.