Need help from Experienced BP owners!!!

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The range I go to George is marked off every 20 feet, so it's not quite every ten yards. One spot is clearly marked...25 yards!!! Kind of makes you think, doesn't it? I shoot at 25 yards all day yesterday, pretty fun and I as hitting the paper without a problem but the groups weren't too pretty. I was using a 10" X 12" shoot and see and the target circle was an eight incher. There wasn't much room for not making it into the paper. I had a few flyers that hit onto my cardboard though...not too bad. My Remington is almost completely dialed in, just need to move the front dovetail a touch more to the right. Can you believe I took it to a gun smith and he couldn't even move the damn sight! I went out and bought a little desk top 4" vice and did it myself. The front sight moved for me! :D

Old Fluff...You were right about the 1860, too unsafe to shoot the way the trigger is right now. I pulled off six shots and it shot nice, albeit slightly high (maybe three inches or so, no big deal, the notch in the hammer sight needs to be deepened slightly.) I'll just have to be patient and what for my friend to get back from his CAS trip. A new trigger should be all it needs but I'd like to get a new hammer also, the second notch looks a little worn to me, best to be safe. The caps exited the cylinder perfectly! My last Colt styled cap & ball was constantly getting jammed up by spent caps but this one spits them out the side very nicely. Can't wait to give it a proper breaking in! I've been using Remington caps lately, they're a little smaller, less length to them. I'll have to try some CCI's on the 1860 and see if I get the same results. Thanks for the advice.

Sicilian.
 
sicilian sorry to impose

My lyman and t-c are being dailed in as we speak. Nicely ,I may add. the traditions 44 navy is what the package said , but it didn't say the year. the front sight is an unadjustable front pin made from brass. the rear sight is a notch in the hammer at full cock. It shoots high at 25' but it is centered well should I try a longer range I use 30gr. pppg .451 rd. ball #11 rem. cap.
can file or manipulate the sights without damage to the gun
I have alot of ?'s.
Should I start a new thread ( even though I am not on here enough to watch it) if anyone can help me send me a note unless it pertains to this thread.

gmatov:
My club is private I pay an annuall fee of 52$ a year I can hunt fish camp shoot at 4 diff. ranges . It is very limited to accepting new members they do not mark the ranges in any way other than to clean up your own mess . on about 750 acres that border on the state forrest I can walk for 3+ miles w/out seeing another road :)
 
Your revolver sounds like an 1851 Navy and you can get emails alerting you to the posts you're watching, that way you don't have to keep checking back to see if anyone answered your questions, just go to your personal account settings. You can file the notch deeper on your hammer, just be careful, you can't put back the metal you remove. What kind of a load are you shooting with, how many grains of powder? And what size ball are you shooting with? the heavier the ball the higher the point of impact. A lighter ball will help lower the POI a little, but not too much, best thing to do is adjust your load and file your sites a bit. I get good accuracy with 22-25 grains of black powder/Goex. By the way, is your gun a brass framed or a steel framed model?

What range do you belong to, sounds like a State run shoooting range by the cheap membership fee.

Sicilian.
 
sicilian reply

I have an old computer I just got another one but haven't set it up yet so I have probs w/ messaging I have to turn mine off to send and receive anything new
the last message I sent you answers all of the ?'s you asked
I use 30 grains of pyrodex p the fffg equivalent that is what was recomended in the manuel and what the measure dishes out that came in the kit it also came with .454 rnd balls. I just ran out of them and tried some .451 rnd balls but I can't get reliable results should I lower the charge to 25 grains. Filing the sight is an extreme last resort.
 
Actually, filing the sight isn't extreme at all, most of us BP shooters wind up filing something sooner or later anyway. Before you do file the sight though, try decreasing the charge to 25 grains, maybe even decrease it to 22 grains, then see what kind of elevation you get after that. A .40 cal cartridge will throw a charge of around 22 grains, a heavy charge would give you around 25 grains. Do you have access to some .40 cal shells? You shouldn't have any problem finding some lying around on your shooting range. I think a .45 cal shell will throw around 30 grains, but you already have something for thirty grains. Also, a 9mm shell will throw appr. 15 grains. I think you should stay above 20 grains of powder, anything less would probably give poor results.

How often are you cleaning you're bore while you're shooting? I tend to swab mine out every 24 shots or so, fouling can fill the rifling and cause poor accuracy so make sure you run a few patches through your bore. I spray my patches with glass cleaner and run them through the bore using a decent cleaning jag. You can also run a brass bristled brush through your bore before you hit it with the patches. I like to spray glass cleaner down the barrel while my finger is covering the breech area, then I cover the muzzle with my other hand and shake it back and forth, dumping out all of the fouling out the muzzle. It works pretty good for me and the bore shines nicely.

How many shots can you get out of your revolver before it starts to bind up? Once you know how many shots you can get out of it before it starts getting fouled you'll know when it's a good time for a bore cleaning. I don't own an 1851 Navy so I can't say too much about what ball size you should use, but I think .454 is probably the largest they'll take. My Remington (Uberti) will take a .457 just like my Ruger Old Army, it's supposed to grap the rifling a little better, giving better accuracy. Fool around with all of the different parameters and see what your revolver likes the best. What kind of powder are you using? Pyrodex right? That's pretty good powder, supposedly very consistant. If you can get some Goex Black powder, do so, it's better than the synthetics. When I first started shooting I liked the synthetics better, but the more I shot the more I began to like the real thing better than the newer stuff. Nothing like the Holy Black!

Sicilian.
 
Mario!

Think youd be on that loadin lever awhile tryin ta get a .454 in a 1851 Navy! .380 is what i use.

H777 is jus fine, ya gotta know what it likes an it DONT want lots of compressin, ya can compensate with a few grains black fer a booster, and it smooths out.

DONT like goex myself, an tha BOSS wont have it on tha property, uses SWISS. When i'm burnin charcoal, so do i, cleaner, better velocity, accuracy. Ta be fair, mebbe tha new well milled goex'll be better UNTIL they start cuttin corners again.
 
Hehehe,

Manyirons, You still alive! Good! :D It's a .44 1851, shouldn't have said Navy huh? I need to get some swiss, you;re right, Goex is very dirty, lots of fouling, I wish somebody around my way sold Swiss...is it really that clean? I guess I'll have to break down and order some since nobody around my way supplies it. The Goex is fine in my Ruger (That thing never binds up but I still have to swab out the bore every so often) I still like Goex better than Pyrodex though! :D

ManyIrons,

Would the Mann make some stainless steel internals for my 1860 Colt? It's a third generation so the parts are all Uberti...How much would they cost me? Oh yeah, are those conical bullets available now? Do you guys have a web site yet or what?
 
Yup, he DOES make stainless parts fer 1860, but theys usual in a full tune and AINT cheap stuff! Super competitors like em, but theys makin money!Second week of July fer tha .44s, and Swiss burns purty clean IF ya loads it ta good pressure. Website? Been around awhile!

http://www.bigironbarrels.com/default.htm
 
Mario!

If ya looked at tha FORUM fer BigIron ya woulda seen a write up on em BY MEC thats been here fer a few months now i think.

They DO work!

Or go to tha bigiron forum, look under tha PRODUCT REVIEWS.
 
sicillian thanx 4 the reply

I have a small measure 5 to 50 grains, but it is cumbersome to use for a revolver I will find some spent shells to find the right charge. I can load 6 of them without laying my gun down between measures. I load them with the cylinder in, because I don't have a loader to do it w/ the cylinder out. I used 27 grns w/ 451 rnd ball in my lyman.

I started w/ goex and liked it ,but my local dealer doesn't get it unless he orders alot because of the s&h charges are high atleast that is what he said he lost his ffl recently so I have to drive 20 miles to get anything.

I don't want to file any internal parts but the external parts I will if the prob isn't solved with the charge. plus it is new and I want it look as beautiful 10 yrs from now as it does now

I clean it while shooting after 18 to 24 rnds it get a little stiff. After I get home I use hot water w/ dish soap. then dry it very thoroughly if it fits in the oven I heat it to 200degrees for 3 min. coat it w/ crisco or bore butter put it back in for 3.5 min. take it out wipe it down w/ with a grease soaked rag then let cool then wipe down again with a semi dry rag
this keeps them primed for long term storage.

even if you shoot them they stay clean for a few days unless they are over shot.

I never use petroleum based products on my b/p arms.

I am always open to advice and will try it It may a month before I get back to the range but anything anyone can add will add up to a productive day there
 
No problem Chrisbob, just trying to help. When you do find some shells, twist a thin piece of flexible wire around the base of the shell to use as a dipper handle, makes things easier and cleaner. Use your powder measure to re-check the grains per shell I gave you, you might get slightly different results than I did. Seems like you have everything pretty much covered now, Hell! It's not rocket science or anything, just be careful not to blow yourself up! :D have a good time when you do finally get to the range.

Sicilian.
 
Mario,

I forget where you are from. 52 bucks a year is a little high, down here, for gun club dues. I forget what my club cost 40 years ago when I first joined. 10 bucks, mebbe. Rejoined 2 years ago and the initiation was 50, annual dues, 30 bucks.

We have a pond for the kids, 100 and 200 yd ranges, covered with benches, 25 yd covered with benches, pistol range, covered with benches, shotgun pattern range, covered, again with benches, and special pistol range, covered with benches, and there you can use full auto weapons.

Archery trails for the bow men, etc, though I don't get into that. Couple hundred acres, all grandfathered into the local use ordinances. We were here first, someone wants to build houses over the hill, don't bitch about the noise.

Chrisbob,

The size of ball you need can be determined by measuring the chamber mouths, or by getting a 451 ball and trying to seat it, if it slips in easily, no shearing of lead all the way around, a bit too small for a sure seal and for a good grip on the rifling. Ie, the shaved diameter will only have a little of the round outside of the ball gripping the rifling. Kinda stripping the ball as it flies. Very narrow flat on the side of the ball.

A 454 or 457 would have a larger flat on the side, more area to grip the rifling, and, if you have a bore that is close to chamber diameter, you have the best of both worlds. Mind, if you have small chambers, they will be harder to ram home on pistol.
What makes your measure cumbersome to use? Is it too large a diameter, makes it tough to pour the powder into the chambers? There are measures that have a swing aside top that is smaller diameter. Personally, I like them, for the 36 calibres, cumbersome, to me, for 44 cal pistols.

If you HAVE a powder scale, I would suggest you measure out a charge, and weigh it. You may be posting a 25 grain charge and shooting 18, or vice wersa. Measures are not at all accurate, for the most part..

Before you try grinding the hammer notch sight down, try upping the charge. The faster the ball leaves the barrel, the flatter it shoots. You might "adjust" your pistol to shoot POA-POI at 20 grains BP, find it shoots 6 inches low with a healthy load.

Cheers,

George
 
I don't have a scale to weigh the charge. I have been buying one thing at a time to build up my tools.:)

the club I belong to was $15 a year 8 yrs ago. now the state is trying to take it to build interstate 69 right through the middle of it now it is 52 $ a year but this is paying for alot of improvement of the property. I wasn't convinced at first but now I have seen the finished product. we are fighting the state as are many private land owners around us who could lose their homes and properties.:fire: :cuss:
 
Interesting George,

Up the charge huh? I keep getting bad information....Someone told me that a heavier ball/bullet would lower the POI, which is wrong, after I thought about it for myself for a few moments I realized this made no sense and that a lighter bullet would bring down the POI. But increasing the charge has given me bad results, not better accuracy. Usually, a lower charge gives better accuracy. In theory a heavier charge will give flatter bullet flight, and it works well in a rifle, but in a revolver I've had bad luck with heavier charges. Good idea...about using a scale to weigh the charges powder measures throw, been thinking about weighing mine for the past few days, just haven't got to it yet. I figured that Chrisbob didn't have a scale either, so the point was mute in his case. I'm curious, what kind of increase would you recommend for bringing down the trajectory? Maybe 28 to 30 grains? I tried 35 grains once and it gave me horrible accuracy...could have been me not being used to the recoil though, just to think through all the different parameters that could effect the POI. For the most part though, recoil is not a problem.

Sicilian.
 
In my experience, slightly lighter charges often result in better accuracy - which is usually what I'm looking for. Having found the "right" load I dovetail the barrel and mount a front sight that can be adjusted for elevation and windage. I would note that this was sometimes done during the 19th century, as I have seen (and owned) a number of original revolvers that were so modified.

Concerning Colt replicas. Remove the cylinder and then pull the hammer back until it is stopped by hitting the backstrap. Then ease it forward until the trigger engages the full-cock notch. Notice that as the hammer rotates forward the nose of the hammer (where the rear sight notch is located) goes up because the hammer is moving in an arc.

At this point all kinds of lightbulbs should be going on... :D
 
thanx for advice I appreciate it

sicillian thanx for letting me intrude on your thread i have received alot of information
gmatov thanx I need to take my b/p's and info to the range

w/out experience talk is cheap :D
 
I agree with Oldfuff, light loads are usually more accurate. Within reason, anyhow.

The question here is with balls hitting high, any windage is correctable, whether it is you or the pistol.

A fast ball, NOT a big assed heavy ball, a conical, will leave the barrel before you get too uch muzzle rise, and you are GONNA get that, even if you shoot blanks. If it leaves the barrel before it rises too high, you will be closer to POA.

If you shoot a low powder charge, couple hundred FPS slower, the recoill will raise the muzzle higher when the ball leaves the barrel, shoot high.

Same for every firearm ever made. Flat shooting hi-power rifles not only have flatter trajectory, they leave the barrel quicker, before it has kicked you on your ass.

Simple, really, and we got a guy born 100 years ago to thank for this great insight.

Cheers,

George
 
Interesting...very interesting. Physically, scientifically, it makes perfect sense. But as we all know, real world tests sometimes go against good physics. Theoretically the ball should leave the bore faster if under more pressure and thus exiting before the muzzle has a chance to rise. The problem is more powder tends to create more recoil. So even though a faster charge should help the projectile leave the bore before too much muzzle rise, I doubt it will transfer to the shooter, i.e., the POI will still be high. A reduced charge gives the best of both worlds, controllable recoil and accurate POI. At least in my humble opinion and by the tests I've done in the field. It could be that I haven't increased the charge enough to get to the point that George is talking about. I'll probably never try it considering a lighter charge works great for me and it also conserves powder. And conservation is important, considering that powder prices are set to go up by 20% next shipment!!!! :cuss:

Sicilian.
 
it is nice to hear opions , but are there any statistics to back it up?? I can't take opions to the range if I keep talking enough I may become a senior member also:neener:
 
Statistics are worse than opinions:what: Just go to the range and load a few cylinders with heavy (35-40 grains) charges...note your results. Then load a few cylinders with around 22-25 grains of powder (for a .44 cal) and check out the results. I bet you'll get more accurate results from the lighter charges. :neener:

Sicilian.
 
thanx from chris bob

the sarcasm is so thick I am still wiping it of of my keyboard. 1 month ago you asked for advice from exp. bp arms shooters. I guess you are an expert now I apologize for wasting your valuable time w/ my stupid ?s .


this is a forum for discussion I have been shooting bp arms for over 20 yrs I don't always ask ?'s for me sometimes it is for the general public or my friends who don't have a computer. Perhaps you could be a bit nicer or polite after all no matter how good you think you are there is always someone better. sorry for for being a butt I really don't like to be :eek:
 
Heavy vs. light loads, and point of impact.

Black powder as formulated during the middle 19th century was courser and less uniform then today's counterpart, and because charges were determined by what volume a chamber could hold I believe that in effect the charges were lighter, or to put it another way they produced lower velocities. This had the effect of causing the ball or bullet to strike lower.

The plow-handle shape of these revolvers, combined (usually) with plain, uncheckered walnut stocks, "encouraged" the gun to roll upward in the hand to better position the thumb to cock the hammer for the next shot. But when this effect is combined with heavy powder charges and long barrels the result is vertical stringing of shots that often impact above the point of aim.

Many reproduction Colt-style revolvers do not bring the hammer back far enough so that the back of the hammer touches the backstrap when the hammer is a full-cock. If the hammer is further forward while at full-cock the net effect it to raise the rear sight on the hammer nose because it is revolving in an arc. This too can contribute to high shots above the point of aim.
 
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