Need help identifying Luger. Please

[Will Learn]

I'm in the process of liquidating my grandmother's estate for her. She's moved into assisted living and it is quite expensive. I was given two of my grandfather's Lugers but she wants to sell this one. I'd buy it but I can't swing it. He fought through the Battle of the Bulge and brought back a bunch of stuff.

Anyway, I've spent some time researching and I think I've figured out all I can. I hate to pester you guys with this inquiry but I really need to get this done for her. We're trying to figure out any information regarding identification and value. I would greatly appreciate the help.

The info I have is that it's a S/42 with a serial of 6251. It has all matching serial numbers and all the strawing seems to be intact. I have a leather holster and two magazines. It has multiple Nazi markings on it. From what I could find out that means it's a 1938 Mauser made Luger.

Here are some pictures:



















Again, we would greatly appreciate any information you guys could give us. Thanks

 

[critter]

I know zip about Lugers, but I would bust a gut to keep that in the family!

 

[Will Learn]

Unfortunately I've already busted my gut buying three of his Nazi marked Walther bring backs(to go along with the two Lugers he gave me when he was alive). He told me that he had a unfired MG42 w/tripod in his ruck sack to bring back but they caught him with it and took it. God I wish he would have gotten that through.

We don't have much family and I'm the only one who's into guns and WWII stuff. I have a ton of medals, helmets, binos, and other stuff that he had brought back. I have no idea how he got all of it back. lol

 

[jmace57]

One sold about 10 minutes ago in an on-line auction (proxybid.com) - same 1938 S/42 model (with a holster) in similar condition for $2250 plus a 20% commission. Another of the same model (with holster) but not in as nice condition sold for $1600 plus commission. Two others in "fair" condition sold for $800 and $850 plus commission. Hopefully that will give you an idea for a starting point.

It's a real beauty!

 

[Jim Watson]

From what I could find out that means it's a 1938 Mauser made Luger.

Considering that it is clearly marked 1937, I would take that as the year made.

There is probably a letter under the main serial number on the front of the receiver. The Germans normally used four digit serial numbers with letter series in guns made by the hundred thousands. And returned to 1 the first of the year. I think only the first 9999 guns made in 1937 will lack a letter suffix.

The holster was made by Koenigs und Bismarckhutte AG in 1940.

I think the bright plated magazine is German GI but don't know about the blue one.

 

[QwikKotaTx]

I've never seen one in that good of condition. Is that gold plating or what have you normal?

 

[Jim Watson]

That is what is known as "straw color" and it is from the heat treatment of those parts.
It is correct for a Luger of that year. They eventually went to all-over hot blue, producing the "Black Widow" guns.

 

[Will Learn]

Thank you so much for the information everyone. I'll take some more pictures tomorrow in the daylight and post them up. Thanks again, I really appreciate it.

 

[Jim K]

FWIW, that holster was sent to Mauser to be delivered with the gun. (WaA 135 is the head of the inspection team assigned to Mauser.) If I understand correctly, at other times holsters were delivered separately and issued to units.

Jim

 

[HisSoldier]

Beautiful weapon, and possibly the best aesthetics of any handgun. Beauty is, as we all know, in the eye of the beholder.

 

[tark]

A beautiful pre-war Luger made by Mauser. Doesn't get much better than that. Does the serial # on the magazine match? They were numbered to the gun, and value of the piece drops a bit without a matching magazine. Interestingly enough a second matching mag can raise the value of the gun tremendously. For this reason, there a lot of fakes out there.

The magazines were stamped by hand and when a second mag was shipped with the gun, the same man using the same stamp set, did them together. If the two stampings do not match exactly, under close examination with a magnifying glass, one is a fake.

Google "Collector Firearms" or "Simpson's LTD" They offer a couple of hundred Lugers for sale at any given time. They are in Galesburg, Ill. Mr. Simpson is one of the biggest Luger collectors on the planet. He has forgotten more about Lugers than the rest of us will ever know.

It is hard to judge condition, even with pictures as excellent as yours, but i'm betting it is at least 90% remaining finish. And you have the holster and accessories, which increases value accordingly.

I just did a quick search on their site. They list several S/42s. One, a 1940 S/42 code with holster and accessories and at 95% they list for $5995.

Your gun may be worth more than you think!

 

[joem1945]

See if you can locate any capture papers as they will add value to them. They are super fine and should bring $$$$. Wish I had them.

 

[Jim K]

FWIW, the second magazine, the one that originally went in the holster, has the gun number and is marked with a "+" (plus sign).

Jim

 

[Will Learn]

Here is some more info about the piece:

The serial number is 6251 and should be visible in the pics

I'm not sure if there's a letter or not but there IS a mark. It looks kind of like a bird almost. Here's a pic:



There's another number in between that mark and the serial on the bottom. It almost looks like "8,81" I can't tell if it's a comma or a partial number in between the two eights. Here's a pic:



You might have to save the pic on your PC in order to zoom in on it and see what I'm talking about.

I don't think the magazine is matching. Here is a pic of the base plate:

 

[Monac]

Will Learn, my Luger knowledge is weak, but I think the "8,81" is European for 8.81 and is the true bore diameter in millimeters. There may be some finagling with the lands and grooves of the rifling figuring into the measurement. If I could remember that kind of thing, I'd be in Vegas, cleaning up at blackjack by card counting.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, that is a letter under the main frame serial number. I don't know what it is, I don't read Fraktur that well.

8.81 is the BORE diameter. As close as can be quickly measured with a plug gauge on an assembly line inspection station.

 

[Plastikosmd]

+ on the second mag is the spare mag that came with gun if I remember correctly. So u have one matched spare and an unmatched mag, I think...

 

[Will Learn]

So do you think that metal mag is matched to the gun even though it has a different number on it?

Oh, also, I was told that the suffix letter is an "r" so the serial would be 6251r

 

[tark]

Bummer on that magazine. It goes to another gun. But is only drops the value slightly. A major drop in value would result in mismatched serial #s. After examining your pics more closely, it is obvious the gun was never handled much, the is almost no wear in the grips at all. It may be a 95% gun and you are close to the stratosphere when The finish remaining gets that high. Mr. Simpson has told me that each percentage point over 95% can double the value of the gun.

You are probably still looking at well into four figures for value, if not more. I would strongly advise contacting Mr. Simpson at Collector firearms and possibly sending the gun to them for a professional Appraisal. Just make sure you contact someone who really knows Lugers, and make it clear that the gun is not for sale. Shipping it out may costs thirty or so dollars, each way, (It has to be overnight, Federal law, and NOT the USPS) but it will be well worth it.

Just remember, everybody loves Lugers. If you make it very clear at the onset that the gun is NOT for sale, there is less chance they will try to convince you that it really isn't worth much, and then try to get you to sell it to them.!

Good luck.

 

[Jim K]

That magazine #38364 appears to have had the original markings removed and a new number put on. The "2" instead of the "+" indicates it was in police service. (The army used a "+" to indicate the spare magazine; the police used "1" and "2" on the two issue magazines.) The five digit number is likely not that of a military P.08, which would normally have had a 4 digit or 4 digit and letter serial number.

Jim

 

[.45cultist]

The Waffenampts(?) or Nazi proofs also will tell a story, they change a couple of times in the late 30's and mid '42 if I remember right. The early acceptance marks don't have a year.

 

[Gordon]

One of the better production Lugers and it is worth a quick $2000 and maybe $2500.

 

[Jim K]

The "Waffenamt" mark (eagle over WaA and a number) is an inspection and acceptance mark. The number indicated the officer who headed the inspection team; it had no connection with the date. He carried his stamps (a number of them) with him, so a change of numbers at a given factory or facility indicated that that person transferred, retired, etc. In a few cases, the movement of the officer can be tracked from one place to another. A few numbers have been traced to a specific person, but the vast bulk have never been tracked and likely never will be.

Of course, that officer didn't do all the inspection and marking himself. Although he was ultimately responsible for quality control, he was primarily an administrator. That does not mean he was ignorant of ordnance; those officers were chosen based on gun knowledge, gunsmithing work, or experience as a military armorer.

The actual marking was often done by company workers, sometimes by army NCO's. In occupied countries, supervision was strict, in German and Austria (part of Germany through WWII) it was relatively lax, though never slipshod.

While quality control is essential for military arms, there is little doubt that the German emphasis on marking parts and such rigid control ultimately interfered with production and hurt their war effort.

Jim

 

[.45cultist]

The "Waffenamt" mark (eagle over WaA and a number) is an inspection and acceptance mark. The number indicated the officer who headed the inspection team; it had no connection with the date. He carried his stamps (a number of them) with him, so a change of numbers at a given factory or facility indicated that that person transferred, retired, etc. In a few cases, the movement of the officer can be tracked from one place to another. A few numbers have been traced to a specific person, but the vast bulk have never been tracked and likely never will be.

Of course, that officer didn't do all the inspection and marking himself. Although he was ultimately responsible for quality control, he was primarily an administrator. That does not mean he was ignorant of ordnance; those officers were chosen based on gun knowledge, gunsmithing work, or experience as a military armorer.

The actual marking was often done by company workers, sometimes by army NCO's. In occupied countries, supervision was strict, in German and Austria (part of Germany through WWII) it was relatively lax, though never slipshod.

While quality control is essential for military arms, there is little doubt that the German emphasis on marking parts and such rigid control ultimately interfered with production and hurt their war effort.

Jim

I said that poorly, the early years when the Versaille treaty was being broken up to '38 the stamps were to be done a certain way, this changed again in '42, much like any regulation that is updated. Sorry to imply the number was a date. Officers routinely bought their sidearms, so once in a while an early Luger will have a later stamp. One of the factors that changed markings was that Germany no longer secretly rearmed for example. The holster has the look of an imperial brown redyed to comply with the (then)new regs. In 1947, the U.S. Army did the same thing for holsters and boots. A retired officer said they were thrilled when the order came with a couple of cans of polish.