Need Help: Slide-Lock for Standby?

[horge]

Need Help. Slide-Lock for Standby?


Here's a newb thought, so please be gentle.

I've heard lots of minor complaints (some from relatives) regarding the stiff racking involved in small blowbacks, and with many pistols in general. There simply are some individuals who find it beyond their grip and strength.

In a home-defense app where the domestic agreement is to keep firearm and mags separate until a need actually presents itself, this difficulty in racking the slide (chambering the first round) can be a serious stumbling block when the weaker members of the family are the ones called upon to arm and defend.

So...
For home defense storage were you have to keep mags and pistol separate, what's the downside to keeping the pistol with slide racked back and locked in place? Then all you'd have to do is insert a loaded mag, release the slide lock, and ...kh-chhk! You're chambered.

Is there damage involved with keeping a blowback's recoil spring compressed like that for long periods like, say, six days at a time? What are any other downsides (safety et cetera) to that sort of standby condition?

I'd appreciate an explication clear enough for relative newbs like myself to digest
and offer thanks in advance for any advice or comment on this matter.

horge

 

[tiberius]

I don't understand your "domestic agreement" but I assume that you cannot get around it.

Other options:

1: get a revolver
2: get an auto with a magazine disconnect (S&W, BHP, etc.) and keep a round chambered.
3: Tip-up barrel. unfortuanley this limits you to .380 (or less) Berettas, but since you mentioned "blowbacks" I figure you're not using a serious cartridge anyhow.
4: There are attachments that can be added to the back of the slide to make it easier to grip - like a T-grip.


In your situation, I strongly recomend a revolver because any malfunction in an auto will require that the user be able to rack the slide.

 

[horge]

Thanks!
The pistol already has a magazine-disconnect safety, but always keeping a live round in the chamber makes the family nervous: they're not anti-gun, not at all --indeed there is a lot of dry-fire practicing going on, and such frequent practice doesn't help the live-round-in-chamber option look any safer.

We're considered a fairly disciplined and conscientious lot by others, but I like to plan around a much more humble estimate of our abilities

I know that the 'R' in a simple TRA/TRB means the skill had better be de rigeur, and hand-strength exercises are underway for the weaker part of the houshold. I just want an arrangement wiith THIS pistol that will tide us over 'til the not-so-strong grow stronger. (Even the round-in-the-chamber arrangement is subject to the inabilty of some of us to TRA/TRB)

A revolver is considered too dangerous, following the same thinking that has me straited to a 'keep the firearm separate from the ammunition' policy. So...

Loaded cylinder: no way.
Loaded mags: yes --if they're not in the mag well
Round in chamber, no mag, magazine disconnect safety in place: maybe.


I'm still wondering if there's any real mechanical reason to NOT keep a pistol racked back and locked like that, all other things being equal.
Thanks again

 

[tiberius]

A revolver is considered too dangerous, following the same thinking that has me straited to a 'keep the firearm separate from the ammunition' policy. So...

That's why God invented speedloaders

While I do have a BSME, I do not know if keeping the slide locked back would damage anything, but I doubt that it would. More succinctly - it's probably OK from a structural and spring perspective.

I think the real problem is that the only time that the difficult slide will be a real issue is when you are not home, but one of the weaker members of your family is and needs the gun to defend their life. I think that there is too great a possibility that either the slide release will be actuated too early or there will be some other malfunction that will require the slide to be fully actuated before the gun can fire. Remember, if they need the gun, then their life must be in danger and they will probably be very excited. I would be afraid that there would be too much chance for error.

If someone who needs to use a gun cannot rack the slide, then they should use a different gun. Sure you can use work arounds like you described as a last resport, but if you can buy a different, more suitable, weapon, you really should. IMHO of course.

 

[horge]

I think that there is too great a possibility that either the slide release will be actuated too early or there will be some other malfunction that will require the slide to be fully actuated before the gun can fire. Remember, if they need the gun, then their life must be in danger and they will probably be very excited. I would be afraid that there would be too much chance for error.

Point well taken, indeed, much appreciated

By the time they'd have seen sufficient practice with my Slide-Lock Standby workaround in order to ease the 'jitters/carelessness' concern somewhat, they would likely have gotten strong enough to rack that puppy. They can nearly rack it, as is, so they're looking at one to two months of hand/arm strength training, tops.

Thanks for the ME input!

 

[Gunslinger45]

When I bought my Pro Carry SLE it was new but had not been made for a couple of years. After only 400 rounds I had to replace the recoil spring because after years of sitting around unused with only the compression given the spring by being in the gun it had lost it's strength early. I would hazard a guess that if the slide was left locked open for long periods as it would be on a home defense gun then the spring would be unduly weakened over a long period of time. Once young hands can rack the slide successfully I suggest that the recoil spring be replaced. A weak recoil spring can cause misfeeds, jams and FTRTB.

 

[1911Tuner]

Locked Slide

To answer the original question...

No. Leaving the slide locked overnight won't hurt the recoil spring.
It may take a little more of a set over time, but it will take a while,
and likely won't affect the function of the pistol for a long time...
probably longer than you'll live, assuming that the pistol isn't
fired a lot.

Cycling a coil spring is what produces causes the most loss of tension,
not static compression.

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

The question concerning keeping the slide locked back vs. effect on recoil spring tension would also depend on what particular pistol you have. Some have better springs then others.

What would worry me is that in an emergency a "weaker member of the family" might have to get the gun, and in the process unintentionally release the slide before the magazine was inserted. Then they'd have to insert the magazine and hand-cycle the slide - and might not be able too do so.

If the pistol has a functioning magazine safety I don't see why you'd be worried about leaving the chamber loaded. Without the magazine in place the pistol can't be fired. That's what a magazine safety is for. Years ago I kept a Browning Hi-Power in a nightstand beside the bed with its chamber loaded. During the day I took the magazine with me. Never had a problem.

Incidently, you can't dry-fire a pistol that has a magazine disconect safety unless the magazine is in the gun, and I presume anyone that might dry-fire the pistol knows enough to clear it first.

With all of this said, I think you should seriously consider a double-action revolver. If it will make you feel safer keep it unloaded with ammunition stored in speed loaders kept seperate from the gun.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

1911 Tuner wrote:

No. Leaving the slide locked overnight won't hurt the recoil spring.
It may take a little more of a set over time, but it will take a while,
and likely won't affect the function of the pistol for a long time...
probably longer than you'll live, assuming that the pistol isn't
fired a lot.

Cycling a coil spring is what produces causes the most loss of tension,
not static compression.

1911 Tuner's right. No less an authority on springs -- Wolff Springs -- says the same thing.

Working the springs is what causes wear/fatigue, not leaving them compressed.

(Leaving mags loaded, a subject of continuing debate on this and other shooting forums, therefore, is not a problem...)

 

[DMK]

Another option may to keep a 20 ga pump shotgun for home defense (I say 20ga so that other members of the family can practice with it). Load the tube magazine and put the safety on.

You need to perform four deliberate actions to get the weapon to fire.

1) Press and hold the slide release button to unlock it.
2) While holding down the release, pump the action to load a round
3) Release the safety.
4) Squeeze the trigger.

 

[1911Tuner]

Walt

Hey hey Walt! Any more holes in the wall down at GFTC?
I understand that Corbett changes the subject whenever it comes up.

Be of good cheer and mindful of your muzzle!

Tuner

 

[horge]

Thank you for all your help.
A revolver is presently out of the question. Not a matter of reason, I'm afraid


Old Fuff,
For dry-fire exercises we have a separate magazine solely devoted to such, and loaded with a few DIY snapcaps.

Again, thank you.



horge

 

[Old Fuff]

Walt:

I don't dispute what you and "Tuner" said concerning springs in late model 1911 style pistols. However note that "horge," who posted the question, has an unspecified pistol with a magazine safety - something that Government Model pistols by whatever name - don't. It does little good to offer answers about the effect of keeping a pistol's slide locked back until one knows what particular pistol is being used. For all I know this could be an older Colt or Browning pocket pistol that had springs that over time could take a set. Hopefully this information will be forthcoming and then more specific advise can be offered.

 

[horge]

My apologies, Old Fuff and gunslinger,

I hadn't meant to be vague, and there's still the risk I've misunderstood some of your suggestions (English is a third/fourth language to me and mine). The firearm in question is a Bersa Thunder .380 with a solid (not stranded) wire spring.

Hopefully the gun spec does not affect the basic principles of spring fatigue that have been laid out thus far. Thanks to Tuner and Walt for more spring info.

Back to revolvers...
Firearms are not as easy to come by in this country (though there is no mag cap limit), nor are they so easy to resell. There is in fact a limit of one(!) handgun per citizen, barring special circumstances. We are allowed a single shotgun or rifle each, and (thanks DMK) maybe one day we'll look into a 20ga shotty.

I described a domestic agreement early on, and simply put, it involves keeping live ammunition and firearm separate until absolutely called for.
On logic alone, sure, I know that with the magazine disconnect safety to rely on, it's safe to keep a live round in chamber with no mag in place. The setup would sure make it more reliable for users unable to rack, I agree. But again, this show ain't running entirely on my logic


As for having the presence of mind to clear that live round prior to any dry-fire happiness, somehow we'd just like another layer of safety on top, and storage w/ an empty chamber presently does it for us

...even as we go about making sure everyone in the house is very clear on the dangers and proper use of the firearm, and train every one to rack the firearm's slide properly.





horge

 

[1911Tuner]

Bersa

Don't know much 'bout Bersas...Fluff may have a good point since
we don't know who made the spring. Have you demonstrated
the magazine disconnector to the more nervous members of the
family yet? If they see that it works, it might make a difference.
Folks tend to be a little leery about things they don't understand.

Luck to ya!
Tuner

 

[horge]

Have you demonstrated the magazine disconnector to the more nervous members of the family yet? If they see that it works, it might make a difference. Folks tend to be a little leery about things they don't understand.

I just did a copuple of hours ago, Tuner, and the one with the most say says it's something to sleep on.

Again thanks to everyone for helping us see our options for the interim (while some of us work on our racking skills, hehe) more clearly.



horge

 

[BluesBear]

Get a GunVault and bolt it down.

That way you can leave your weapon fully loaded and ready to go. Make sure that only those who know how to properly use the weapon know how to open the GunVault.


Check them out here

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Off Fuff wrote:

Walt:

I don't dispute what you and "Tuner" said concerning springs in late model 1911 style pistols. However note that "horge," who posted the question, has an unspecified pistol with a magazine safety - something that Government Model pistols by whatever name - don't. It does little good to offer answers about the effect of keeping a pistol's slide locked back until one knows what particular pistol is being used. For all I know this could be an older Colt or Browning pocket pistol that had springs that over time could take a set. Hopefully this information will be forthcoming and then more specific advise can be offered.

I really wasn't trying to disagree with your original point when I responded. And I certainly wasn't trying to limit my comments to late mode 1911 pistols... My only reason for responding was to restate what spring experts (and metallurgists who participate in these types of forums) have tried to make general knowledge. To wit:

1) that a spring will take a set relatively early in its life. All springs do. (This "set" is factored into the design specs; it is expected.) Its particularly noticeable with new mags that are hard to load.

2) Spring FAILURE (in normal use) is a function of exercizing the spring(compressing and uncompressing) and NOT a function of keeping the spring compressed for long periods of time.

So given what I know -- (which may be wrong and, if so, I hope someone will correct or clarify) -- I guess I DO disagree with your response, above.

(That is not usually the case, as I find your responses here on THR to be of great and continuing value.)

 

[caz223]

With the bersa design, the spring goes around the barrel, and the spring is longer than it would be if it were a locked breech design. Provided it's heat treated well and it isn't defective, it will last a long time.
I would recommend buying a replacement spring, and store the gun with the slide locked back.
Every now and then, take out the stock spring and compare it to the new one.
If it's 2 or 3 coils shorter than the replacement, throw it away and put in the replacement, then order a new replacement.

 

[Old Fuff]

Walt:

When “horge†posted his question about leaving the slide of his pistol locked back for long periods of time I noted two important things. First the make and model of the pistol was not stated, only that it had a magazine disconector (safety) of some kind. Second, he lived in the Philippine islands. This opens a wide number of possibilities concerning the pistol. Was it a late-model quality brand that was made somewhere in the Western world? Or was it turned out by a domestic manufacturer none of us had ever heard of and probably wouldn’t want to. Could it be something produced during the early years of the 20th century when spring steel was not what it is now?

What you said concerning modern, high quality coil springs is generally correct. They take an initial set and then don’t compress much further, and to the extent they “fail†they do so through use.

But we had no idea if we were dealing with a pistol that had springs like this or not, and “horge,†considering that he was getting expert and informed opinions might stake his life, and those of others, on our advise.

I have seen a fair number of older striker-fired pocket pistols, based on the F.N. Browning 1910 or 1922 that wouldn’t go “bang†because the piece had been left loaded over long periods of time with the striker/firing pin spring in a fully compressed condition. The spring took a set and the result was obvious.

In my view, giving someone advise concerning defensive weapons is not wise unless one knows what the particular firearm is, and when and by whom it was made. This is especially true if the person lives somewhere other then the United States, where they may have access to arms we are completely unfamiliar with.

An example: One time when I was working in a retail store an individual phoned and ask if he could use “high-powered hollow points†in his .38 Smith & Wesson. I answered that, “I didn’t know, I’d have to see the gun.†Shortly there after he came in with a well-worn and very loose Spanish copy of an S&W made out of low-carbon steel (read that as “ironâ€) sometime during the 1920’s or 30’s. I don’t know if a Plus-P load could have detonated it or not. But I advised him not to find out.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Good points and a well-reasoned reply. I understand.

 

[Jim Watson]

Safety versus availability:
I have seen a higher proportion of failures to feed in loading or reloading a pistol by dropping the slide off the stop than in actual firing. I think you are running a significant risk that the gun will malfunction when you try to load it this way.