Need help with bullet set back

[snnewbie2020]

I started loading 9 mm 124 gr Round nose from RMR bullet today and I'm having issues with setback. I loaded a dummy round and rack it in my 1911 and measure it , it is about .005" shorter each time I tested it . I try to increase the taper crimp to the point when I use the puller to pull it out I saw a deep cut around the bullet but it still don't fix the problem. my die is Redding and I load it to COL 1.135".
I used federal case I loaded with Eggleston bullet before and I don't have this problem, the case has been fired 3 time so I think if the case is bad . I go back and load a test round with eggleston bullet and it has no set back.
I test loaded couple of Winchester case and also no set back.
So my question is :
1 - I only do target shooting so does .005" set back is acceptable?
2- is my case end it life after 3 times reload ?
3- is RMR bullet and federal brass a bad combination ?

Thank you in advance for any advise

 

[Virginia Jim]

First things first. Is the bottom of your sizing die touching the shell holder during the sizing step?

 

[NMexJim]

Just out of curiosity, mic several bullets and see if you're getting consistently .355 diameter.

Usually, setback is associated as a result of recoil and usually heavy recoil.

No, 3X isn't too many under normal loads. I've got some that I've fired, shoot, maybe 9 times or more. Primers pockets get loose after a while, and I toss them. I do load in lots of 1,000 and keep track of firings.

Federal and all other 9mm brass that I know of is built to SAAMI specs and should not be the problem.

I would not normally worry about .005, however, I think we need to be a bit cautious in case you're getting compressed loads. Bullet profiles vary between manufacturers, but 1.135 is what Sierra recommends for their FMJ. Hornady lists 1.150 for their FMJ. But, just what powder are you using? And, please double check your COAL. Double-check your neck size out of the sizer and again out of the expander. Really should just have to take the bell out. Engraving the bullet as you state would suggest that, under normal circumstances, you're over taper crimping.

Not being familiar with RMA (but others on this forum use them), I went on their site and found the information copied below on their FAQ. I personally have never seen anything quite like it. I would highly recommend you're calling them (208-816-3859) and discussing the issue before going too much further.

What are pulled or demilled components?
SOURCES OF PULLED or DEMILLED COMPONENTS:

Major ammunition manufacturers typically inspect every lot of ammunition they produce. During the inspection process, they may find any number of factors that would make the lot unacceptable. These factors include but are not limited to:

• Wrong Bullet
• Wrong Bullet Caliber
• Wrong Bullet Weight
• Wrong Powder
• Wrong Powder Load
• Wrong Case
• Case Flaws
• Over/Under Pressure
• Too Much/Little Crimp
• Missing Flash Hole
• Backwards Primer
• Damaged Case Mouth
• Any other factor that would result in an unsafe or unsatisfactory load

Pulled/demilled components may also come from ammunition that was taken in a raid by the BATFE, FBI, Coast Guard, local police, or another government entity. They typically deem this ammunition unsafe and mark it for demilling.

WHY PURCHASE PULLED/DEMILLED COMPONENTS?

1. Great Pricing! Pulled/demilled components are an excellent value to the meticulous reloader. Pulled/demilled components cost much less than new components.

2. Obtain Rare Components! Purchasing pulled/demilled components is often the only way to obtain certain types of components, as they are not typically available on the commercial market.

3. Recycling! By purchasing pulled components, you keep them from being destroyed. These were made with the intention of being used for ammunition. By purchasing and reloading them, you help fulfill that purpose.

Pulled/Demilled cases may have sealant and/or residual powder. This powder should be removed to ensure correct pressures. Occasionally a primer is seated backwards and sometimes bullets fall and remain inside the case. Pulled bullets may have been hand sorted. While we do our best to sort our pulled/demilled bullets, sometimes a stray component comes through that may be another grain, another caliber, or in very rare cases, it may be mangled or unshootable.
Pulled/demilled components are not for every reloader. IT IS ALWAYS RECOMMENDED THAT YOU CAREFULLY EXAMINE EACH COMPONENT. Please only buy pulled/demilled components if you are willing to examine them.

WHAT ABOUT SECONDS?
We also sell factory seconds. Seconds are typically new components that are blemished (spots or surface scratches) or they may have cracks or other defects in their plating. We do our best to list why they have been deemed seconds in the product description.

 

[lbs]

So you're loading a dummy round in a pistol and losing 5 thou?
I think I'd check the calipers

 

[mdi]

N/A duplicate

 

[Ru4real]

....9 mm 124 gr Round nose from RMR ....loaded a dummy round and rack it in my 1911 and measure it , it is about .005" shorter each time ...

Is the nose of the bullet deforming or flattening slightly as it travels from magazine, up the feed ramp and hitting the top of the chamber as it bounces into the chamber?

Is the RMR bullet cast?

 

[mdi]

Sounds like too much crimp. Too much crimp on semi-auto round will loosen the neck tension. Brass has more "spring back" than lead/jacketed bullets and will loosen bullets. I've reloaded many, many 124 gr RMR bullets and have not crimped any, no set back, no loose bullets (in 90% of the main cause of set back is feeding, hitting the ramp). I just "deflared" with a taper crimp die, enough for a good plunk test. Unless you have brass with very thin case walls (rare), undersize bullets, a bad sizing die (very rare) or too much crimp, neck tension will be enough to keep bullets in place. Works for me for 4, 9mm pistols for 20+ years...

 

[Blue68f100]

Could be the Federal cases are thinner/softer not giving you the neck tension. See if you can push one in just using your thumb pressure. If so you will have to make the case smaller to hold the bullet. The best way to do this is reduce the amount of flare/expanding your doing. Over crimping will give you less neck tension. Bullet fit to brass is whats holds the bullet, not crimp. Only remove the flare enough to remove the expanding operation. Using a set of calipers you should be able to measure how much or little crimp your doing. Then confirm it fits you gun and/or case gauge.

 

[snnewbie2020]

at work now but I recall that I can't push with my thumb but I can put it with my hand and I am 125 lb guy . I notice that the federal case is slightly thinner than Winchester case that why when I test with Win case I don't have problem. I dit not check the Dim of the RMR bullet I just received after 3 month of back order ,will do when I got home. I will take the advise from mdi and Blue68f100 to reduce the amount of flare and crimp . and Yes my sizing die is kissing the shell holder. one thing I can think of is the Eggleston bullet is lead coating and it diameter is .355" that why I don't have problem when I load it before I am a new reloader and only load about 1000k of Eggleston bullet so far, I doubt that this RMR bullet is may be smaller.

 

[loadedround]

I think your problem is too little crimp, not too much crimp. I was having a similar problem with Sig P226 with the same weight, but different manufacturer. After much persuasion from a another reloading buddy, I tried his Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) and my problem was solved. Who said you can't teach an old dog a new trick? Always though Lee products were second quality products for beginners!

 

[rfwobbly]

I started loading 9mm 124gr Round Nose from RMR bullet today and I'm having issues with setback. I loaded a dummy round and rack it in my 1911 and measure it , it is about .005" shorter each time I tested it . I try to increase the taper crimp to the point when I use the puller to pull it out I saw a deep cut around the bullet but it still don't fix the problem. My die is Redding and I load it to COL 1.135".

Apologies in advance, but there is no diplomatic way to correct these statements. IMHO, the technique and narrative seem to point to all sorts of misunderstandings about pistol cartridges.

• Each type & brand bullet is made differently. Each pistol barrel chamber is cut differently. By "differently" I mean "unique", "individual", "discrete", "like no other". Therefore, what ever you did last week with another bullet has absolutely no bearing on what this bullet requires in this gun. Please, start all over.

• You need to go through the exercise of determining (measuring) the Max OAL of that specific bullet in that specific barrel. It's the combination of bullet-to-barrel fit that determines your Max OAL dimension. And because this is your barrel and your bullet, no one else can make that measurement for you. (For me and my gun, I need to load RMR bullets around 1.060"... so there's a hint.)

• The Max OAL is not your final OAL, it's only the maximum. SAAMI suggests the Min OAL for the 9x19 Luger cartridge is 1.000", but it may be safer to use the load recipe OAL. So you then have an OAL range to choose from. Therefore, the Max OAL measurement is the hard numerical Science of Reloading. Your choice of final Cartridge OAL within the permissible range is the Art of Reloading.

• Here's a cartoon to graphically depict what I'm trying to tell you...


So your final cartridge OAL could be any dimension within the green zone of the chart. And again, your final cartridge OAL could be different for every bullet you load. So what I highly suggest is that with every new bullet, you start a new page in your loading notebook.

• Finally, the Taper Crimp does not hold the bullet in an auto pistol cartridge. Reducing the TC most likely only buckled the case, and which tends to reduce the "hold" on the bullet. You should return your TC adjustment to the neighborhood of 0.378" diameter and leave it there.

Hope this helps.

 

[mdi]

P.S.; I own and reload for 9 semi-autos in 4 different chamberings. I started reloading for them about 30+ years years ago (starting with 45 ACP). I have used jacketed, cast, plated and coated (PCed and Hi-Tek). I have never "crimped" any after I learned about the cartridges bullets and feeding methods. I only decrimp with a taper crimp die enough for a good plunk test (even measured some necks to make sure there was no crimp). I don't have a total round count but I bought a 45 ACP in '86 and almost immediately bought dies and bullets. Soon followed by 9mm, then 380 ACP, and just 3 years ago bought and started reloading for a 32 ACP. No setbacks...

All that is to say, in my experience and not bragging, for semi-auto reloading, no crimp is necessary and often detrimental to handload quality...

 

[NMexJim]

P.S.; I own and reload for 9 semi-autos in 4 different chamberings. I started reloading for them about 30+ years years ago (starting with 45 ACP). I have used jacketed, cast, plated and coated (PCed and Hi-Tek). I have never "crimped" any after I learned about the cartridges bullets and feeding methods. I only decrimp with a taper crimp die enough for a good plunk test (even measured some necks to make sure there was no crimp). I don't have a total round count but I bought a 45 ACP in '86 and almost immediately bought dies and bullets. Soon followed by 9mm, then 380 ACP, and just 3 years ago bought and started reloading for a 32 ACP. No setbacks...

All that is to say, in my experience and not bragging, for semi-auto reloading, no crimp is necessary and often detrimental to handload quality...

X2 for this thread. Often, you'll find the resize die to leave the neck at .380 or perhaps even .381. When you set your flare, use just enough to get the bullet started - that may be +.003 or a bit more, say .383 to .385. When you taper crimp, shoot for the original neck dimension coming out of the full-length die of .380 or even .381. I've not had any setback either that I know of.

 

[243winxb]

https://leeprecision.com/undersize-sizing-dies/ Size the case smaller. Use a smaller expander.

 

[snnewbie2020]

Thank you all, I just check dimension on 10 of each bullets115 gr it is .3545" and the 124 gr is .355" very consistent.
test load 5 dummy round with less expand and very light crimp and the result come out lot better than yesterday. I load 1 round on magazine and release the slide stopper and let it riding the bullet on my CZ sp01 there is no set back at all but I still get set back on my Spingfiled 1911 A1 model each time about .005" to .008" ( yesterday I only use the springfiled to test it I didn't test on my CZ )
I took 2 Federal factory loaded round and point my gun to the safe area and do the same thing the result come out even worst , there was .01" set back on the springfiled and Zero on CZ SP01. I only own this Springfeild about a year and had shot about 1500 round all factory ammo and no problem at all other than couple of double feed . So what wrong with my springfiled ? does any one own this model of springfiled experience this problem ? I am scare to shoot it now and I guess with the new test today I am ok to load and shoot on my CZSP01. and BTW just a dummy question can I just load the COL a little longer to off set for the set back ? instead of 1.135" canI just load it to 1.145" ?
Thank you all guy

 

[stillquietvoice]

Can you post pics of each bullet? The rn shape of each is probably different I've had this come up with Stateline 124 rn Vs liberty 124 rn bullets.

Notice that the rn starts tight at the bearing front edge, the liberty had a truncated shoulder smaller than the bearing surface allowing it to enter farther into the lands. If the 124 rmr looks like the photo load it shorter not longer. Loading it longer will exasperate the problem.

Try coloring the exposed portion of the bullet with a black sharpie and test again. It will show where it is hanging up cause the black ink will disappear.

For me and my gun, I need to load RMR bullets around 1.060"... so there's a hint.)

• The Max OAL is not your final OAL, it's only the maximum. SAAMI suggests the Min

This is good information, go to rmr website and see what they recomend for oal. Saami oal recommendation is likely for a different bullet.

 

[stillquietvoice]

These are from my Lyman 49 9mm lead section.

These are both 120 cast lead bullets, note the oal for each.

 

[AJC1]

These are from my Lyman 49 9mm lead section.View attachment 966053 View attachment 966054

These are both 120 cast lead bullets, note the oal for each.

I was also going to mention oal. I load lyman and 115 most common so my oal is 1.090. In a heavier bullet a little longer may be good but the longer you go the less surface area of contact for neck tension. Over crimping also hurts tension.

 

[NMexJim]

If you don't have a reloading manual by a major manufacturer like Hornady, Sierra, Lee, or Lyman, please get one and read it. If you're very new to reloading, I'd go further and suggest you stick to major brand components until you get established. It's like cooking, we all had to follow the recipe at least for a while anyway.

As rtwobbly says above, every chamber can be a little different. Google SAAMI (sporting arms and ammunition manufacturers institute). CIP is the European equivalent. The drawings there will give min and max specification for cartridges and cutting dimensions for chambers. I've attached 9mm fyi. Note that the minimum cartridge length is 1.000 and that max cartridge length is 1.169 just as rt has shown in his drawing. Somewhere between those dimensions (note that rt stated "could" in his post) lays nearly every 9mm bullet made. All you just have to figure out the length for your gun and your bullet. 1.145 might be the magic number, but we need to know what powder and what primer before making any judgements on that.

RMR does not give any reloading info that I could find, and this is not a big surprise. Most secondary manufacturers of bullets will not. Some will say something like "use suggested reloading data for similar bullets". But, remember the discussion about bullet profiles being different and be very careful.

And, we come back to rtwobbly again. You need to learn how to custom load for your chamber which is done by using a plunk test. Remove the barrel from your pistol. You "plunk" the loaded cartridge into your chamber and see if it fits. You can find lots of references on this forum.

PM me if you need to.

 

[243winxb]

there was .01" set back on the springfiled

Try different magazines or adjust the magazine, so the bullet nose sits higher.

 

[Dudedog]

still get set back on my Spingfiled 1911 A1 model each time about .005" to .008"

Just curious, do you get more setback if you try the same round again or is it just happening on the first time?

 

[snnewbie2020]

Can you post pics of each bullet? The rn shape of each is probably different I've had this come up with Stateline 124 rn Vs liberty 124 rn bullets. View attachment 966049

Notice that the rn starts tight at the bearing front edge, the liberty had a truncated shoulder smaller than the bearing surface allowing it to enter farther into the lands. If the 124 rmr looks like the photo load it shorter not longer. Loading it longer will exasperate the problem.

Try coloring the exposed portion of the bullet with a black sharpie and test again. It will show where it is hanging up cause the black ink will disappear.



This is good information, go to rmr website and see what they recomend for oal. Saami oal recommendation is likely for a different bullet.

Can you post pics of each bullet? The rn shape of each is probably different I've had this come up with Stateline 124 rn Vs liberty 124 rn bullets. View attachment 966049

Notice that the rn starts tight at the bearing front edge, the liberty had a truncated shoulder smaller than the bearing surface allowing it to enter farther into the lands. If the 124 rmr looks like the photo load it shorter not longer. Loading it longer will exasperate the problem.

Try coloring the exposed portion of the bullet with a black sharpie and test again. It will show where it is hanging up cause the black ink will disappear.



This is good information, go to rmr website and see what they recomend for oal. Saami oal recommendation is likely for a different bullet.

 

[snnewbie2020]

Yes I am new to reload, This is the first time I load this type of bullet , I got the information base on the Speer website and also for the highroad forum. 1.135” Col and 4.4 to 4.9 win 231 for 115 gr bullet and same Col with 4.0 to 4.5 for 124 gr bullet.
So do you think if I load it shorter COL along with less crimp and expand will help bullet set back? Of course I have to reduce powder and work it up

 

[snnewbie2020]

Just curious, do you get more setback if you try the same round again or is it just happening on the first time?

the second and third time it set back little less than first time( around .003")

 

[snnewbie2020]

Can you post pics of each bullet? The rn shape of each is probably different I've had this come up with Stateline 124 rn Vs liberty 124 rn bullets. View attachment 966049

Notice that the rn starts tight at the bearing front edge, the liberty had a truncated shoulder smaller than the bearing surface allowing it to enter farther into the lands. If the 124 rmr looks like the photo load it shorter not longer. Loading it longer will exasperate the problem.

Try coloring the exposed portion of the bullet with a black sharpie and test again. It will show where it is hanging up cause the black ink will disappear.



This is good information, go to rmr website and see what they recomend for oal. Saami oal recommendation is likely for a different bullet.