need info and or advise on blackpowder shotgun loads for waterfowl

[midland man]

so guys as most of you know I bought this navy arms 10 gauge double barrel percussion shotgun from paul thanks and so was thinking on trying my hand at duck hunting or even geese this winter but here in Oklahoma we are not allowed to use lead shot on waterfowl so guys what ya'll recommend for loads and types of shot etc, to use in this Bp shotgun??

 

[paul harm]

This may, or may not help.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23838

 

[midland man]

This may, or may not help.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23838

thanks paul! and anyone else have any experience on this subject?

 

[Gordon]

I shoot my Pedersoli 10 ga. with 90 grains of FG and ballistic pattern driver wads with 1 1/4 .oz of steel BBs and a felt top wad . I know people say plastic wads are no good for BP but when you shoot migratory birds you must use non lead shot and I don't like to scratch the chrome bore of the gun. The gun only has 26" barrels so for playing around I shoot lead shot and regular wads, but I wanted it to bang some sprig ducks as a laugh at the duck club and it did well for that .

added: when I bought this SG cheap it was as neww but had the barrel cut back to 14 1/2" or so. Fun to play with but I searched to find a longer barrel for it. Low and behold this January I found on Ebay a used set from an uncompleted Kit . They had allready been cut back 6" with no chokes left for some odd reason, but installing them was a breeze and I have a hunting gun besides a playing around gun

 

[paul harm]

Just a thought. Steel is usually only good out to about 35 to 40yds. After that it looses it's energy because it's so light. A number of guys at my club have found that out the hard way. I know tungsten shot is expensive, but there isn't a whole lot you can do if you expect to bag geese because a lot of times their feathers will deflect shot unless they're going away and the shot can get underneath them. I use to hunt them in the UP of Michigan at my brothers with a 8ga muzzleloader I made. This was back when lead shot was legal. We'd hunt farm fields and in the morning you could see two or three different flocks with a 100 to 300 birds in a flock. It was just unbelievable, at least to me. My son and other brother would show up to hunt . That was fun.

 

[Curator]

Midlandman:

A muzzle loading shotgun is just as good for hunting waterfowl as a modern shotgun but you need to load it correctly. Does your gun and ANY choke in either barrel? Most are made without chokes but Navy Arms sold guns under their name build by Pietta and Pedersoli. Some of these had improved cylinder or even modified chokes in one or both barrels, or a combination of both. Loading for good patterns at effective range requires some attention to detail. The "over powder" wads need to be tight. I always use two .125 card wads over the powder charge (90 to 110 grains of Fg black powder for a 10 gauge) If your gun has any choke at all, be sure to turn the over powder wads on edge to get them into the muzzle, and load at 90 degrees to one another so that the edges that get squeezed won't line up and allow gas leakage. A 3/8 or 1/2 inch lubed "cushion" wad goes next. I buy 10 gauge plastic wad columns made for steel shot and cut away the shot sleeve portion to load over my cardboard wad column. The 10 gauge plastic gas seals do not work all that well with black powder or substitutes like Pyrodex, but the plastic shot sleeve does protect your barrel and helps in improving your pattern at distance. Put the shot sleeve inside the muzzle to load shot, than push the whole thing down into the breech, Don't try to load the sleeve first then expect the shot to find its way into it, down the barrel. When selecting steel shot always use one or two sizes larger than you would if shooting lead shot. Larger shot pellets retain velocity and energy better at distance. Also use 8 or 9 gauge over shot wads in a double barrel gun as the recoil will dislodge smaller wads and let the shot loose.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I bought this navy arms 10 gauge double barrel percussion shotgun from paul thanks and so was thinking on trying my hand at duck hunting or even geese this winter but here in Oklahoma we are not allowed to use lead shot on waterfowl so guys what ya'll recommend for loads and types of shot etc, to use in this Bp shotgun??

First, lead shot is banned in the United States for waterfowl, so once you work up a load, you'll be good for waterfowl anywhere in CONUS, and Alaska.

I've been told about using mylar wraps available from BPI to prevent steel shot from harming the barrels in a ML shotgun. From what the manufacturer publishes, and what independent (at least I think they were independent) writers have written online and in magazines, mylar with a shotshell cup is intended to eliminate the possibility of damage to modern shotgun barrels, made for the use of steel shot. I haven't found information where the manufacturer of either the mylar or the ML shotguns say it's OK to use it with steel in ML shotguns. However, a few people report that they have not seen any problems with using mylar and a plastic shot cup and steel shot when waterfowling with a repro ML shotgun. Which is great, since steel shot runs about 10% the cost of bismuth. So I'm going to try this soon in my own guns.

I like to look at what folks use for modern shotguns, as a starting point for working up a ML shotgun load. As for loads, a lot of shotshells for waterfowl are 1⅛ - 1¼ ounce for 12 gauge. You could go to 1⅜ - 1⅝ ounce of shot with that 10 gauge I think without worry.

Now the shooter using #2 shot and 1⅛ ounce of bismuth gets 96 pellets, but in steel that's 141 pellets. SO..., the modern shooter is losing mass when using the steel pellets instead of the bismuth, so might reduce lethality when reaching out to 60+ yards. BUT since you're not trying to reach out 60-80 yards because you're using a muzzleloader..., you can opt for steel using a shot cup and mylar, and use the greater amount of pellets to your advantage. At 1⅝ ounces your 10-gauge would be launching about 203 pellets when using #2 steel shot. (Shot chart http://shotshell.drundel.com/pelletcount.htm .)

So you'll need to test your gun. You will probably want to try both 2Fg and 1Fg since you're using a 10 gauge. I use 1Fg in my 11-bore musket, and you may find you like it in your even larger 10 gauge. If you can't find it then opt for 2Fg.

You'll want to try three loads, 80 grains, 95 grains, and 110 grains, (which are 3-drams, 3½-drams, and 4-drams of powder), and test the pattern of the loads from 1⅛ - 1⅝ ounces of shot at 40 yards or so. After a couple of shots, swab the barrels clean and drop a bore-light down them to check for any steel damage. If none, you're probably good-to-go.

The patterning is important because you can overpower a pattern with too much velocity when using a ML shotgun, and you end up with a gap in the center of the cloud of shot, often called a "donut" pattern. You want to get as much velocity without the donut, hence the need for the testing.

I'm betting that 95 grains and 1⅝ ounces of steel shot with a shot cup and mylar will be just fine for you, but your shotgun will give the right answer instead of my "guess".

LD

 

[noelf2]

My Pedersoli 10ga double has chrome lined bores, which are supposed to be ok for steel shot. I haven't tried it with steel though.

 

[midland man]

My Pedersoli 10ga double has chrome lined bores, which are supposed to be ok for steel shot. I haven't tried it with steel though.

not sure if my navy arms has the chrome lined barrels as it strangly was made by pietta and the pics online show david pedersoli stamped on the navy arms barrels but mine has pietta on it so I guess both manufactuers made guns for navy arms??

 

[midland man]

Midlandman:

A muzzle loading shotgun is just as good for hunting waterfowl as a modern shotgun but you need to load it correctly. Does your gun and ANY choke in either barrel? Most are made without chokes but Navy Arms sold guns under their name build by Pietta and Pedersoli. Some of these had improved cylinder or even modified chokes in one or both barrels, or a combination of both. Loading for good patterns at effective range requires some attention to detail. The "over powder" wads need to be tight. I always use two .125 card wads over the powder charge (90 to 110 grains of Fg black powder for a 10 gauge) If your gun has any choke at all, be sure to turn the over powder wads on edge to get them into the muzzle, and load at 90 degrees to one another so that the edges that get squeezed won't line up and allow gas leakage. A 3/8 or 1/2 inch lubed "cushion" wad goes next. I buy 10 gauge plastic wad columns made for steel shot and cut away the shot sleeve portion to load over my cardboard wad column. The 10 gauge plastic gas seals do not work all that well with black powder or substitutes like Pyrodex, but the plastic shot sleeve does protect your barrel and helps in improving your pattern at distance. Put the shot sleeve inside the muzzle to load shot, than push the whole thing down into the breech, Don't try to load the sleeve first then expect the shot to find its way into it, down the barrel. When selecting steel shot always use one or two sizes larger than you would if shooting lead shot. Larger shot pellets retain velocity and energy better at distance. Also use 8 or 9 gauge over shot wads in a double barrel gun as the recoil will dislodge smaller wads and let the shot loose.

sorry I didn't see this first but yeah my shotgun on both barrels is cylinder bore so no choke on either one as I mic'd the end of the barrels and it measures to be .775 on each end!

 

[midland man]

Just a thought. Steel is usually only good out to about 35 to 40yds. After that it looses it's energy because it's so light. A number of guys at my club have found that out the hard way. I know tungsten shot is expensive, but there isn't a whole lot you can do if you expect to bag geese because a lot of times their feathers will deflect shot unless they're going away and the shot can get underneath them. I use to hunt them in the UP of Michigan at my brothers with a 8ga muzzleloader I made. This was back when lead shot was legal. We'd hunt farm fields and in the morning you could see two or three different flocks with a 100 to 300 birds in a flock. It was just unbelievable, at least to me. My son and other brother would show up to hunt . That was fun.

I bet that 8 gauge was a hoss when you fired that one?

 

[paul harm]

It was a O/U side hammer and it weighted about 15lbs. Left it heavy on purpose. I use to shoot 4oz of shot and 400grs of 1F. There was about .010 choke in it and at 50yds would completely cover two newspapers folded out. I also had 12ga barrels that could be used - two tapered pins held them in place. Twice it set me on my backside because I was crouched back shooting overhead. It would just kind a push you over before you knew it. I would put it on my table at gun and knife shows where I sold my knives - more of a conversation piece. Problem was I had a price on it and one time a guy never said anything, he just pealed out Franklins and it was gone. Oh well.

 

[paul harm]

There's many ways of loading MLing shotguns. One tried and true method is a equal amount of shot and powder [ by volume ]. That's why the old adjustable shotgun measures show both shot and powder for every load. If you don't have one Ballistic Products sells a plastic one for under $10 - last I checked. I always used the next gauge bigger for over powder and over shot wads, and the same size for cushion wads. I think that's what I included, but maybe not. I have bags of 10 and 12ga wads for my cartridge guns and maybe some of them got in there. I always liked a really tight fit to seal the pressure and shot in place. Also, too thick a OS wad can cause donut patterns. At least it did when I did a little patterning. The thin .028 card worked the best for me. If you don't have lubed cushion wads, you can always put a couple in your mouth while loading so they're wet and help clean the barrel when you push them down. I don't think back in the day everyone had fancy wads and made do with what they had. As Dave said, too much velocity usually meant poorer patterns.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I use to hunt them in the UP of Michigan at my brothers with a 8ga muzzleloader I made.

Cool, but unfortunately, Federal law limits the size of the bore on a muzzle loading shotgun for waterfowl hunting to 10 gauge these days. The wording at the Federal level doesn't have different regs for modern vs. muzzle loaders, so you have to use non-toxic shot, and you stop at 10 gauge. I'm thinking of building an Amusette (wall gun) in 4-bore, but I couldn't use it on waterfowl.


LD

 

[midland man]

Cool, but unfortunately, Federal law limits the size of the bore on a muzzle loading shotgun for waterfowl hunting to 10 gauge these days. The wording at the Federal level doesn't have different regs for modern vs. muzzle loaders, so you have to use non-toxic shot, and you stop at 10 gauge. I'm thinking of building an Amusette (wall gun) in 4-bore, but I couldn't use it on waterfowl.


LD

man who's that woman she is hot that's what I want for a wife

 

[J-Bar]

I don't hunt waterfowl, so I have no actual experience to share. I remember reading somewhere that shotshell hunting loads should have a muzzle velocity of at least 1200 fps in order to have adequate penetration on game birds. I wish I could find that article. I Googled "shot velocity and penetration" and found this article, kinda similar.

So I post the link here for discussion purposes only. I'm not trying to start any arguments, just find the topic interesting. I have no idea what muzzle velocity a black powder shotgun produces. Have any of you chronographed your muzzle loading bird guns?

Link to article:

https://www.chuckhawks.com/shotshell_ballistics.htm

Edit: I continued my search, found this one. Fun to read.

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/shotgun.html

 

[midland man]

I don't hunt waterfowl, so I have no actual experience to share. I remember reading somewhere that shotshell hunting loads should have a muzzle velocity of at least 1200 fps in order to have adequate penetration on game birds. I wish I could find that article. I Googled "shot velocity and penetration" and found this article, kinda similar.

So I post the link here for discussion purposes only. I'm not trying to start any arguments, just find the topic interesting. I have no idea what muzzle velocity a black powder shotgun produces. Have any of you chronographed your muzzle loading bird guns?

Link to article:

https://www.chuckhawks.com/shotshell_ballistics.htm

Edit: I continued my search, found this one. Fun to read.

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/shotgun.html

wow this is some excellent reading thanks j-bar!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Have any of you chronographed your muzzle loading bird guns?

It tends to be a little hard on the chronograph screens when clocking a cylinder bore. I suppose I could rig up a cardboard shield and a dowel to shield the screens from the fire of the blast and align the shotgun, and sandbag the smoothbore on a bench so it doesn't mover and thus the shot column passes through without taking out one or both of the chrono screens.

An old and tested method is to take an empty, steel, tuna can, and set it up at your desired max range, bottom facing the shooter. Then blast it with your load and if the pellets aren't penetrating..., your load probably won't work at that range. So you either get the bird closer, or up the powder or drop the amount of shot.

LD

 

[paul harm]

The energy of the pellets depend on the weight and velocity so one can't say there has to be 1200fps. Many, many old BP shotgun loads were under 1200fps and killed a lot of game. As Dave said, just check for penetration. LD, only if you get caught. There was no gauge stamped on my barrels and I figured the DNR didn't know off hand the diameter of 10ga or bigger barrels. I only used it for two years. J-Bar, that second link shows the same adjustable measure I have - kind a neat.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Ah well, I have an acquaintance who took his punt-boat, and an actual swivel gun onto the Potomac after geese. Now he'd meant to do this when he bought the unfinished swivel, so had it bored out to .80 aka 10-gauge. BUT since it was a swivel he put in four-ounces of steel shot in a linen bag, and 275 grains (like 10 drams) of 1 Fg. He also mounted a wooden stock where normally the aiming-lever went for the hunting trip, as he didn't know if the gun had to at least appear to be "shoulder fired". It was "early resident goose" season, so he was allowed five birds, and you could hear his lone shot up and down the river that morning! He got his five birds with one blast from a large flight as they lifted off the river, and when he pulled into the boat ramp in Brunswick MD, after picking up his geese..., DNR was going to cite him for using a cannon. He pointed out it was black powder, and a 10 gauge, and had a stock (so what if it had a pintel too). They actually slapped a gauge on the bore, though, once they found it wasn't obviously in violation as it first appeared. (I think the DNR boys were more bothered by all the calls from the commuters at the Brunswick Train Station who reacted to the noise from the blast - and the guy with the swivel was a good 1/2 mile away from them when he touched it off ) . So that was the first and last time he took it hunting,. He didn't like the fact that either he'd have to wait until there were only a few birds, OR run the risk of taking out more than 5..., he also didn't like the risk of wounding birds and not having a quick follow-up shot so the bird might suffer. So he put the aiming lever back on the back, and had the piece bored out to 1.5". I think he sold it to a group of pirate/privateer reenactors, and they put it on a whale boat for "raiding party" reenactments.

LD

 

[4v50 Gary]

That's awesome Loyalist Dave.