Need input on a "walk around gun"

[kir_kenix]

i know its already been stated a thousand times, but ill say it again...Winchester model 94. I would stick w/ a good (and reasonably quite) rifle round instead of getting it in .357 or .44. for what you will be doing .22 mag should pretty much cover all your needs, but you can always shimmy up to the tried and true 30-30. if you dont much care for lever guns (who doesnt tho?) and you wanna go real cheap, hi-point makes some really affordable carbines as well. i have had one sitting in my truck for a couple of years that has had a couple thousand rounds fired thru it, gotten wet half a dozen times, and has never been cleaned. i have complete faith that it would work just fine for me right now if i went out and got it.

 

[KD5NRH]

Well, that's what I usually carry my 9422M for. .22WMR is enough for long range small critters, and my carry handgun is with me in case I need a bigger slug close in.

I've dropped small feral pigs in their tracks with a single .22Mag from 70yds when it was all I had with me, and the rifle is light and short enough to not be a problem on walks. Doesn't tear up much meat, either, but you do need to be good with it and know where to hit.

 

[michael_aos]

Henry makes a lever-action .22 Mag.

 

[USBP 1969]

FWIW, I believe that it kinda depends on where one lives.

When I was in my teens in Ohio I darned near lived in the woods and a .22 rifle was all I felt I ever needed, as was the case when I was stationed in SC near the coast while in the US Navy.

When I was stationed in Maine and southern Arizona I carried a handgun (Gov't issue) since the primary threat was two legged.

But...when stationed in Montana (Whitefish, Eureka area) I soon discovered in talking with the US Forest Service and US Fish and Wildlife folks that I would be sorely under gunned with either of the above choices. The first year I as there, there were 4 attacks by Grizzlies, two of which were fatal, and a whole bunch of moose attacks that were not, since the bears do in fact climb trees while the moose don’t. Even the rangers in Glacier stated that they wouldn't think of trekking in the woods without something BIG like a .375 H&H and the US Fish and Wildlife guys carried Remington Model 1100’s with a 28” barrel and long extended magazines with rifled slugs.

Part of my patrol duties took me to a place called “Moose City” where the North Fork of the Flathead River crossed into the US from Canada. Interesting place. There, I met a retired RCMP constable who had served his career in coastal BC. He told me that one of his primary duties was to respond to bear problems which often required that lethal force be used on the bear. He said that his top year was 36 bears dispatched! Of course I asked what the best bear medicine was and I was quite surprised to when he responded, “00 Buckshot.” He went on to explain that they were taught by the RCMP to use 00 on bears, but that he had doubted. Then, after witnessing the ineffectiveness of the .30-06 and .30-30 he began using the recommended load with 100% success. (He did stress that one should wait until the bear was within 10-12 yards before firing.) Interesting.

Now that I am retired I am looking forward to moving back up (way up) in the north country where I will be spending a lot of time in the woods, so I am pondering the same question as Bullockcm. Hmmm…..maybe a Remington SPR 210 12ga. 20” with a sling and some of the 00 buck my RCMP friend spoke of.

 

[ctdonath]

he began using the recommended load with 100% success. (He did stress that one should wait until the bear was within 10-12 yards before firing.)

100% success ... from those who lived to tell?

 

[USBP 1969]

Hi ctdonath.

I was bit skeptical at first, so he told me two stories. This is the first:

He was contacted by his sergeant and instructed to fly over to an island off the coast of BC. Seems that a pair of Griz had been terrorizing the locals at the city dump on the island. He chartered a Cessna and was flown to the island where he successfully chased off the bears. A short time later this occurred again and off he went with the same result.

I can’t remember how many times he flew over, but the last time the sergeant said, “Take care of this will ya?” He flew over and sure enough the two Griz were on the dump. He said he walked out towards them and they charged. When they got to about 12 yards he fired twice at each and down they went. He returned and informed the sergeant that the problem had been dealt with as ordered.

Later he saw the head of the RCMP on CBC television explaining why one of it's members had killed two Grizzlies. He said that he didn’t look too happy.

 

[bullockcm]

Update

People asked for an update on what I ended up with, I haven't purchased anything yet but I have narrowed my search down. I have had the chance to handle several of the guns suggested and I have done additional research into some others, here is what I have found --->

Off the list:

Ruger 10/22 in .22mag - no longer made and had problems
Ruger 99/44 Deerfield - found one but didn't like the way it handled(I really thought I would have liked it)
Handi Rifle - 7.62x39 barrel no longer available, .44 mag has issues with accuracy from to large of bore

I have handled a couple of lever guns although I can't seem to find any Winchesters near me nor does anyone stock a 1894c (Marlin .357mag). The Marlins I have checked out seem to point well and will probably work for my intended purpose. Unfortunatly no one I know owns a lever gun so I can't try one out first hand. One of my friends did let me shoot his Super Blackhawk (.44 mag) with 240 grain bullets loaded to just under max levels, the gun has a 7 1/2" barrel and we were shooting @ 100yrds. I really have no hand gun experience to compare too but felt the recoil level was fairly high. I know several factors could cause this such as grips, his and my hands are very different, for all I know I may not have been holding the gun correctly.

Anyway what I am getting at is I plan on purchasing a carbine & revolver combo in either .357 or .44. I plan on starting to reload regardless of which caliber I choose. To save on replies here is what I think I know:

-.357 can shoot .38 special
-.44 can shoot .44 special
-hot carbine loads may not be good for revolvers

My questions are:

-can you load the magazine with .38/.44 SP and go or do they need to be fed 1 at a time
-people claim a .357 in a carbine doesn't kick but some say a .44 does, what would the recoil be like maybe relative to a SKS or .20 gauge
-what is the noise like from standard rounds (.357,158gr,1600fps or .44,240gr,??fps) is the level about the same between the 2?

Thanks, Mitch

 

[swingset]

Lightweight AR-15.

Meets all your requirments, and serves quite a few more.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Convenience

Normally, all I carry is a pistol. However If I feel the need for an easy carry long gun my Marlin 1894P (44 Mag) is hard to beat. It's slim, light, easy to point and recoil is just enough to make you smile. It's only 32.5 inches long (16.5 inch barrel). The only downside is, it's kinda loud being ported, though. Surprisingly when shot off a bench with rests it is at least a 1.5 MOA shooter or better at 100 yards.

A 336 in 30-30 is a great choice. The 30-30 has been successfully used on most every kind of North American game for about a century

Try one. Try one of each.

 

[dragongoddess]

Guess your selection is dependent on where you plan to go your walking. If you are going to be walking in the boonies then you need something to handle the big game that resides in your walking area.

 

[bullockcm]

were I walk

I live in southwestern NY just north of the PA border. Black bear would be the largest animal in the area. With that said I think most people will say a .44 mag combo is the way to go however I am not overly concerned with ever coming across one and needing to defend myself from it.

Couple other things, one reason I settled on the pistol caliber carbines is the lack of range, I don't have a good place to shoot more than 150 yrds and less than 75 yrds is typical. Also right now I would rather buy more ammo than pickup an AR.

Another question about sharing ammo between a rifle & revolver. Can the same ammo be used? I don't just mean caliber, I mean the exact same round. Reading some posts it sounds like 2 very different loads are needed for most applications. If this is the case maybe a long gun in .357 or .44 and the revolver in the opposite makes more sense since there would less chance of mixups. Thoughts?

 

[ECVMatt]

I have both the .357 and the .44..

The .357 does kick much less than the . 44. I would go with the .357 if you are just shooting at yotes and such. There is no need for the extra power on these size of targets.

A 1894 Marlin with a Ruger Blackhawk would be hard to beat. They are both virtually indestructable.

Hope this helps you out.

Matt

 

[de]

My walk-around gun for the past several years, is a Navy Arms, Model 92 Winchester clone. Good walnut ( refinished it with true oil) and after I smoothed the action and tuned the ejection a little it is one of my favorites. It's in 357mag. and will handle these 350lb ferel hogs in North Central Texas or whatever. Inside a hundred yards will stay with my 3030. It has a 24" octagon barrel and felt heavy until I carried it awhile. Good balance, and with the Lyman receiver sight is a tack driver.

 

[RNB65]

I strongly urge you to take a real close look at the CZ527 Carbine in either 7.62x39 or .223. It's an absolutely delightful little 6lb rifle with sling attachments and scope ring mounts already installed. All you have to buy are a set of rings and a low power scope (and note that the iron sights are pretty darn good). I guarantee you'll love it!

http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=15

 

[GigaBuist]

Another question about sharing ammo between a rifle & revolver. Can the same ammo be used? I don't just mean caliber, I mean the exact same round.

Yes.

-can you load the magazine with .38/.44 SP and go or do they need to be fed 1 at a time

My Marlin 1984C feeds .38spl ammo just fine. If there's a problem with feeding the shorter rounds then something is wrong with the gun or its design.

-people claim a .357 in a carbine doesn't kick but some say a .44 does, what would the recoil be like maybe relative to a SKS or .20 gauge

Recoil from a .357 magnum carbine? I think there's some there. It's pretty minimal... like less than an SKS.

 

[chad1043]

Just get a 30-30 and be done with it... One of the best round around from squirrel to bear, it would be the best. You can get a Marlin 30-30 for 299 at most big strores..

30-30 can be had for 9-10 dollars a box of twenty...

Chad

 

[ugaarguy]

The Revolver Variable

Bullockcm, you've done a great job of looking at your requirements, needs, and wants. Reading your posts I think either a 357 Mag or 44 Mag lever gun/revo combo would be great for you. There are folks who take wild hogs with either caliber, both long gun and handgun. A feral hog is a big tough critter in its own right, so I'd be confident in either caliber for handling black bear - now how much confidence I'd have in myself to handle a bear at close range is probably a bit less . Like you said, an encounter with one is probably unlikely, but it never hurts to have a gun up to the task just in case.

Now I'd also consider the revolver part of the equation. With a 44 Mag. you're limited to large frame revolvers. A large frame gun (Ruger Redhawk, Super Redhawk, S&W 629, etc) is no problem for most folks to pack when out walking the woods & fields in the country.

On the other hand in .357 Mag you can still get a large frame gun like a Redhawk or a S&W M28, but smaller guns options are available. S&W's 686 & Ruger's GP100 are medium frame revolvers that are easier to carry in more applications, but still very stout guns. The slightly smaller, and now discontinued, Ruger Speed/Security/Service Six and S&W 357 Mag K-Frames (M13, M19, M65, M66) are some of the best carrying and revolvers ever built, and are still widely available on the used market at reasonable prices.

Going down a bit more in size you get into the small (J Frame) S&Ws and Rugers. The little J frame Smiths (several models) and the Ruger SP-101 are excellent 5 shot 357 Mag wheelguns that are very portable. The 3" and longer bbl J-Frames are known as "kit guns", and are still made today. They've been around for years are widely loved for their fullsize gun like long sight radius and small frame weight and size for ease of carry. The 3" bbl adjustable sight SP-101 fits the idea of the kit gun to me as well.

If you've got a gunshop nearby that has a good inventory of revolvers you may want to go there and handle several. Also remember that revolver grips are easy to change and you can find a set that truly fits your hand.

You also said that you wont have the opportunity to test fire a levergun before buying one. If you like the way they handle I think you'll like the way they shoot even better. Best of luck on your gun hunting, and let us know what else we can do to help.

 

[Foxtrot427]

eaaassy

or this...but quiet may go out the door a little.

 

[gila_dog]

Sounds like a .357 or .44 mag lever rifle has a lot of people recommending it. Another thing about one of those is that they are particularly nice to carry. They balance and point well, recoil is insignificant, and with the long barrel the noise is greatly reduced, compared to a pistol.

I got beat up on this subject before, but I think I'm right, and I'll say it again... If you go with a .357 or .44 mag lever rifle and want to shoot .38 or .44 specials (which are shorter), go ahead. Just be aware that you will foul the chamber when you do that, and .357's and .44 mags may not fit any more until you give the rifle a thorough scrubbing. Everybody says it's ok to shoot "specials" in a magnum, and for revolvers with sloppy chambers that's true. I do it all the time myself. But a lever rifle won't have a sloppy chamber, and it will have enough LEVER-age that if you've been shooting specials and fouled up your chamber, you can cram a magnum round into it and get it stuck. With one of those rifles you have a lot more round chambering power than you have round extracting power. You can force a round into the chamber, but if you don't get it in far enough to close the action all the way so you can shoot it, when you try to extract it, the extractor just tears thru the rim of the cartridge or pulls off of it. Now you have to knock the round out with a cleaning rod or long dowel. If you're just plinking at the range that's not a big problem. Just deal with it when you get home. But if you are camping out or hunting and that happens, you may have just disabled your only rifle.

 

[rnovi]

Bullock,

There's been a lot of good advice given here. If you lived in So. Cal. I'd gladly let you borrow a Winchester .357 carbine. It's truly a wonderful rifle that will indeed do the jobs you are asking about. Just some other comments to your questions:

1. Can you use pistol ammo in the rifle and vice-versa? The question is MAYBE. IF you are talking about FACTORY ammo then then answer is yes, the pistol and rifle will interchange ammo just fine. IF you are talking about RELOADS then the answer is MAYBE, but you better do some testing to be safe!

I have .357 reloads (180 gr. JHP or Hardcasts at 1350 fps+ from a 6" GP100) that are well within the capabilities of my pistol. These loads are "special" and reside in special orange boxes in my ammo cabinet. They are NOT to be fired in ANYONE elses guns, even another GP100. They aren't quite maximum loads, but they are close. (By the same token I have 125 gr loads that clock an honest 1700 fps out of that same GP100. These things are "range clearers" - people clear out FAST when I'm shooting them!)

So, Factory ammo? Yes, interchangeable. Reloads? MAYBE. Depends on the reloads.

2. Recoil of the .44mag vs. the .357. I've fired the .44mag from a lever gun - the recoil is stout. Admitedly the rifle I fired didn't have a recoil pad, nonetheless, it's a bit of a wake up call. Certainly more felt recoil than my 20guage Franchi AL48 ultralight with 2 3/4" with a load of Pheasant #5's. The .357 mag is a pussycat and the .38 specials had my wife asking (seriously) "is that all???"

3. Power of a .357 mag vs. .44 mag. Ok, not quite, but it's a fair comparison to say that a .357mag out of a rifle is equivilent to a .44mag out of a pistol. Some loads I've seen in a .357 are closing in on 30-30 territory. A 180 gr. bullet at 1600 -1800 fps is powerful medicine. Varmint loads of a 125 gr. JHP can make 2000 fps without much effort.

Noone will argue that Hogs are tough animals. A .357 with a Hardcast bullet can easily give you a double exit on a broadside hog hit.

As to whether or not I'd go with .357 vs. .44mag - it all depends on what the MOST dangerous game is that you will expect to see. I have no doubt in my mind that a .357 can kill effectively. The question is "How long does it take for an animal to die". A deer? Who cares if you have to chase it 25 yards or 75 yards? A Bear that's charging you? The extra killing power of a .44 mag makes sense.

Personally, if it were my money, I'd try to find a nice .41 mag lever gun with a straight stock. As much as I love the .357, if I was looking for a walk around gun in bear territory I'd go with the .41 mag.
PS: Gila Dog is absolutely right about fouling. If you are going to shoot specials and then carry the gun with Mags the next day for a walkabout, then you better clean that chamber good just to be safe.

PPS: Forgot to mention, most leverguns load 8-9 in the magazine.

 

[MinScout]

I think the Marlin 1894 is the perfect wood-walking rifle. I have the .44 mag, but the .357 would serve at least as well in most applications. Another good choice, as mentioned, is the CZ 527 7.62x39. The detatchable magazine is a real plus for convenient loading/unloading, bulk ammo can still be had pretty cheaply, and it's easily scoped/unscoped as wanted. You really can't go wrong with either choice. Here's a phone-cam pic of my 527.

 

[dfaugh]

I'll (still) play Devil's advocate here....For me its a pistol caliber carbine, in my case a Hi-Point (yeah, I know, I've heard all the jokes.)

But the thing weighs about 3 lbs., you hardly know you're carrying it. Powerful enough, and accurate enough for most anything I' be likely to shoot. An reliable, to boot.

 

[Legionnaire]

dfaugh's argument for the Hi-Point = the argument against the Ruger PC4. While I miss my PC4, it was not a lightweight walkaround carbine. It was a tank, better suited to trunk or truck carry.

Guess you better put me down as recommending a .357 lever action. I'd set it up as a lever scout using XS Sight Systems scout scope base. My lever scouts are a .30-30 and a .44 mag, but given your aspirations, a .357 sounds like the way to go. And I'll put in a plug for a GP100 or SP101 to go with it.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Marlin 1894c, .357

I've wondered about the .357 from a carbine for a little while now.

As of two days ago, I quit wondering.

I was at one of my favorite shops when a guy almost my age came in with a photo report on his hunting trip to Utah last weekend. They were hunting on a ranch where they had access to, among other things, elk and bison.

His son (sniper home on leave from the Middle East) took an Elk. One photo was his son, the elk (nice rack!), and the rifle.

Dad's rifle was out of reach when the bison herd showed up. He had loaded his S&W 686 with some good quality ammo and a couple of rounds of cheap gun-show-generic-bag rounds. He forgot which way the cylinder rotates on the 686, so he had them backwards, and the first round to arrive under the hammer was the cheap stuff.

At 70 yards. One shot. All the way through. Took a rib. Bison walked 10 feet and fell over.

The other photo is the dad with a skat-eatin' grin, a 1,000-pound beast, and a 4" stainless S&W sidearm.

He and one of the shop guys evidently "do a little huntin" and share their stories and photos. The shop guy (who just got back from Africa) had to give him props.

Given that the .357 round from a carbine picks up another 300 to 500 fps, I'm not gonna worry about whether the 1894c in .357 can do the job. I'm just gonna get one to go with MY revolver -- a Smitty 586-7 in blue.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

An ar would be fine?

light, bigger than .22

accurate at 100 yards