Need load data for Accurate 4350 & 30-06

[LivewireBlanco]

I'm loading 165gr Hornady SPBT in a 22" Savage 111. I have Lyman 49th, Hornady 7th, Lee 2nd, and Sierra reloading manuals and none of them list that bullet powder combo. The only close match is 168 Sierra match HPBT.

I know Accurate 4350 is not the same as IMR/H4350, but would you think starting at 56gr with Remington brass and CCI LRP is too high of a starting point?

I see most people find best accuracy with 57gr of IMR 4350 so I'm thinking that this might be close for this powder as well and would hate to get a nice fat bruise on my arm working my way up from 55gr. Thoughts?

 

[James2]

My Hornady 7th shows six bullets in the range 155-168 grains. All the loads shown are for any of them.

IMR 4350 start load 48.1 grains. Max load 57.0 grain. 3.230 COL for your bullet.

It is always recommended, "start low and work up."

Your suggested start point of 56 gr is too high for starters IMO.

Pick a load about midships, like 52 gr to start.

PS: You did say accurate 4350. I don't have data for that powder, but all the same applies. Start low and work up.
Three companies have a powder called 4350. Though they are not exactly the same, they are close in burn rate.
My data for H 4350 start 48 gr. max 58.9 gr.

 

[LivewireBlanco]

So you would you say that using IMR4350 data for Accurate 4350 would be ok? Maybe make 1 load of say 53gr, 54gr, 55gr and then proceed with accuracy testing at 56 with 5 cartridges and then moving up half a grain at a time?

 

[USSR]

Accurate's Load Data Manual from 2003 lists 53.1 to 59.0 (compressed) for their 4350 powder for a 168gr HPBT bullet in the .30-06.

Don

 

[LivewireBlanco]

Don, you think using the data for that Sierra HPBT will be pretty close for the Hornady 165 SPBT? I'm seating to cannelure 3.220.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

You keep wanting to circumvent conventional reloading wisdom by starting well up the charge range. I encourage you to save yourself some time and effort by following accepted protocols, you WILL get to your load quicker.

By starting so high you may well be missing a great accuracy node further down the scale.

If the max load is as stated, 57gr. then back off by 7% to start if you want to be aggressive in your load. Load 3 rounds of each as follows;

Start with 53.0gr. then increasing in 0.5gr. steps to 57.0. 1.0gr. steps for me are too large a jump.

3 shot groups allows you to triangulate and find the centre of the group, this is important. I have detailed the load development process in your other post.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Don, you think using the data for that Sierra HPBT will be pretty close for the Hornady 165 SPBT? I'm seating to cannelure 3.220.

Yes, that's why you take that Max charge data supplied by Accurate and reduce it by 10% and work from there. Accurate lists a Max charge of 58.0gr so if you start with a charge of 52.2gr I'm completely sure it will be safe, even though the bullets are not exactly the same.

While it's always good to have the exact data, as you see it's not always possible.

 

[LivewireBlanco]

Ok, I e-mailed Accurate this question directly:

I am trying to load 30-06 Springfield with Accurate 4350. My components are 165gr Hornady Interlock SPBT bullet, Remington brass, CCI large rifle primer. I am loading to cannelure depth 3.220”. Do I use your data posted for 168 Sierra HPBT for this combination? Thanks!

Here their response with bullet and powder combos that aren't listed online:

You can use the data for the Nosler, with the bullet seated to the cannelure. It will be fine. Take care, Rob

Accurate 4350
150 HDY BT-FMJ 53.7 2,594 59.6 2,886 46,598 3.185
155 HDY A-MAX 52.6 2,512 58.5 2,831 48,762 3.210
155 SIERRA HPBT MK 54.2 2,592 60.2 2,877 48,258 3.250
165 NOSLER PART 53.3 2,626 59.3 2,908 59,309 3.305
165 BARNES MRX-BT 51.1 2,404 56.8 2,709 48,173 3.205
168 BERGER VLD 53.6 2,589 59.5 2,874 55,480 3.330
168 HDY A-MAX 53.4 2,562 59.3 2,855 55,219 3.330
168 NOSLER HPBT-CC 54.5 2,603 60.5 2,875 55,428 3.330
168 SIERRA HPBT MK 53.1 2,596 59.0 2,866 55,789 3.285
168 BARNES TTSX 49.6 2,407 55.1 2,697 52,267 3.300
168 NOSLER E-TIP 51.8 2,546 57.6 2,834 57,252 3.330
175 NOSLER HPBT-CC 53.6 2,573 59.5 2,871 58,594 3.290
175 SIERRA HPBT MK 52.7 2,573 58.5 2,828 56,297 3.290
180 HDY SST 50.3 2,407 55.9 2,678 51,663 3.220
180 SIERRA HPBT MK 51.8 2,533 57.6 2,796 59,617 3.305
180 SIERRA SPT PH 54.3 2,559 60.3 2,797 58,023 3.300
180 SPEER GSLAM 52.7 2,515 58.5 2,753 55,842 3.170
180 BARNES TSX-BT 50.1 2,446 55.7 2,685 51,129 3.218
180 NOSLER E-TIP 49.9 2,425 55.5 2,643 52,000 3.340
185 BERGER BTTLR 52.0 2,503 57.7 2,757 57,006 3.340
190 HDY BTSP 50.2 2,404 55.7 2,655 54,891 3.230
190 NOSLER HPBT-CC 52.3 2,497 58.1 2,754 57,679 3.340
200 SIERRA HPBT MK 49.7 2,411 55.2 2,637 59,444 3.314
200 BARNES TSX-FB 46.3 2,283 51.4 2,445 51,597 3.218
208 HDY BTHP-M 49.2 2,237 54.7 2,522 56,229 3.340
210 BERGER VLD 48.2 2,324 53.6 2,541 59,268 3.340
225 HDY BTHP-M 48.2 2,167 53.6 2,413 57,015 3.340

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Wow, that's a lot of extra data from Accurate, thank you for posting it.

 

[Kachok]

My Savage 111 30-06 likes 57gr of IMR 4350 loaded to 3.290" (my Savage likes everything loaded a little long) but I am using 165gr Serria Game King bullets. That load is the most devastating thing I have ever hit a deer with, left a 6" exit wound in the last one, needless to say no tracking involved. No pressure signs at 57gr, I never tried stroking them any hotter because they shot so well between 56.5gr and 57gr first group and I knew that was my load.
If for any reason that does not work for you I have several good 30-06 loads that I have been experimenting with, PM me and I'll send you the goods.

 

[LivewireBlanco]

Thanks Kachok! I'll post an update and a range report after I go Saturday.

 

[Kachok]

Oh BTW get a PAST Recoil pad for load development, if you 06 is bruising you eliminating the flinch effect will improve the consistency of you shooting and hence you data, best $30 I ever spent. I wear mine anytime I am going to be shooting a high volume of 30-06 or magnum cartridges and I don't care what others think of my sissy pad.

 

[LivewireBlanco]

Good call on the recoil pad! I still have my bruise from last weekend and I was already preparing to eat my Wheaties tomorrow morning!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My Savage 111 30-06 likes 57gr of IMR 4350 loaded to 3.290" (my Savage likes everything loaded a little long) but I am using 165gr Serria Game King bullets. That load is the most devastating thing I have ever hit a deer with, left a 6" exit wound in the last one, needless to say no tracking involved. No pressure signs at 57gr, I never tried stroking them any hotter because they shot so well between 56.5gr and 57gr first group and I knew that was my load.
If for any reason that does not work for you I have several good 30-06 loads that I have been experimenting with, PM me and I'll send you the goods.

It seems like a charge of 57.0gr IMR4350 under a 165gr SGK or a 168gr SMK bullet is a good load for many rifles. It shoots well in my son's Remington 700, my Howa 1500 and several US M1093 and US M1917 rifles.

If you use H4530 you might want to up the charge weight to 58.0gr, I do.

 

[Kachok]

Good call on the recoil pad! I still have my bruise from last weekend and I was already preparing to eat my Wheaties tomorrow morning!

Yeah the 30-06 can be a little much, I can handle an extended range session with them but unless I use my PAST shield I will be pretty darn tender the next day.

 

[LivewireBlanco]

Mother nature hates me. Wind started blowing right to left pretty good halfway through my session. These were my best groups seated to cannelure 3.220, neck sized only.

I'm thinking of working with the 57gr group and seating the bullet out further and seeing if I can find the sweet spot. Oh, and I love recoil pads. 26 shots and my arm feels way better than last time. No bruise!

 

[Kachok]

Yeah I would seat them out a bit, my Savage won't shoot anything that short. I have had mixed luck with Hornadys my 6.5x55 loves them into tiny little one hole groups, my 30-06 and 308 like them well enough and my 7mm-08 hates them with a passion. If seating them out a bit does not help consider investing in some Serrias, ALL of my rifles shoot them well, they are a couple bucks a box more then spire points around here but nothing drastic. While the SGK does not have any fancy locking ring, and are supposedly prone to core/jacket separation I have had absolutely no issue driving them through deer with boring regularity, they expand within 3" of striking soft tissue and expand instantly on contact with bone, neck shot a deer with a 165grSP striking the spine, left and entry/exit wound you could stick your whole arm through, nearly decapitated the deer. If I were to formulate a single complaint about the 165 SGK it is that it can be too much for southern whitetail and is probably better suited to med-large feral hogs, northern buck or muleys, oh and they are hard as hell to find right now so I am about to have to switch to my 180s. I love my PAST shield, it brought my 06 sessions from a couple boxes to as long as I want to shoot, and I have put 100+ rounds of 30-06/308 downrange in a singe day with no issues.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Have you measured the length to the lands with the current bullets?

Remember changing the seating depth also changes the pressure.

When shooting groups one would expect some form of normalised triangle, the two targets you show have very flat triangles which is indicative of a load that is not on an accuracy node (unless they are pretty much touching that is). One grain apart and the load goes from horizontal to vertical. I have seen this pattern on numerous occasions while developing my own loads. Do you have pics of all the targets as they will all tell another part of the story.

In my opinion changing the seating depth is not going to help at this point, your loads are still not, in my opinion that is, optimum. You do not need to introduce another variable, it will simply confuse matters.

I also agree with Kachok, get some SGK's. Don't know anyone who has had a bad target experience with them. They are more accurate than my Accubonds. At least that will remove one unknown, oh and for me SGK's do not like being close to the lands 0.08" for me.

 

[LivewireBlanco]

Measurement to the lands with this bullet is 3.274. I'll post the pics in a little while.

Oh and I would say the left to right group would've been made more pronounced by the wind.

 

[LivewireBlanco]

Here are the other groups. 55 and 55.5 were on another target I left there. Nothing I wanted to keep on those groups.

 

[Kachok]

Seems like your seating depth is technically correct and you are using probably the most reliably accurate load in existence, not to dog your Hornadys (I use them too) but it might just be a case of your rifle not liking that bullet or that bullet weight. I have run across that a few times before.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Hi, thanks for posting those.

Before discussing the targets I think I remember reading in another post of yours that you are capable of shooting 1" groups at 100yds with another rifle, is this correct?

Has this rifle ever shot 1" groups?

OK back to the groups. In my opinion the first target (56gr.) presents as the one closest to an accuracy node. It has that more classic triangle shape I was mentioning in an earlier post. Let me explain, if you brought each shot in on its axis you would get the perfect clover leaf. The target at 56.5gr. also will present as a clover leaf if brought in on their axis. The targets at 57, 57.5 and 58.0gr all will not as they are moving away from the accuracy node.

Looking at these targets supports what I mentioned previously, you are loading at the top end of the charge scale and your rifle does not like this. Effectively placing these targets side by side you have half the OCW method but not the other half which in this case is the half you probably want to see.

I don't know why you are intent on loading to the max. Is there a reason for this?

Take your 56gr load as the midpoint and do as follows please, you are getting close. Load 3 fouling rounds as 55.4gr. and sets of 3 rounds as follows;

Set 1 55.4 / Set 2 55.7 / Set 3 56.0 / Set 4 56.3 / Set 5 56. 6 (all using your existing seating depth)

It looks like your targets are those with one bull in each corner and a bull in the centre? On this target shoot as follows, allowing 2 min cooling between shots and 10 min between the 5 round exercise. This is important to do the following this, trust me;

Shot 1 set 1 top left target
Shot 1 set 2 top right target
Shot 1 set 3 centre target
Shot 1 set 4 bottom left target
Shot 1 set 5 bottom right target

Repeat after 10 min cooling time.

You accuracy node should be found on one of these positions.

For now, forget about the size of each group but rather the size of each group relative to the other. Why? because the groups are relative to each other has they have the same components. The patterns right now are more important. The best group pattern will be your load, please post the target for further evaluation.

Now on group size, the group may be still not be to your liking size wise, this could be for many reasons;

Rifle not capable
Faulty bedding
Bullet incompatibility
Flinching
Seating depth etc.

Once we have the load we can attend to the other issues.

 

[Kachok]

Another odd question for you, how long have you had this Savage? Or should I say how many rounds down the tube, Savage makes the best action in the buisness but their rifling is very rough from the factory, I have owned half a dozen of them and they are all rough at first, usually plenty accurate but they get even more so once broken in. I normally end up scrubbing flakes of lead out of the bore for about the first 100-200 rounds, after which they smooth out alot and the bore brush is no longer pulling out chunks. First two times I cleaned my 06 I had enough lead flakes to cast a couple more bullets, the past couple times have been just as clean as my Winchester and Tikka.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Hi,

we triangulate groups to see where the statistical centre of the group would have been. This is useful for zeroing the scope as it gives us the real average based on our skill / rifle performance. The second reason this is useful is that it highlights any deficiences in the load / rifle / shooters performance.

I have roughly triangulated your groups. You can clearly see how they move out of the centre of the triangle (where you want them to be). This is yet further evidence that your loads need to be reduced.

When you have shot your next set of targets triangulate the groups before posting then take the picture. The OCW method says that the three groups that triangulate the closest (where the point of impact is the closest) the group in the centre will be your most tolerant and therefore best load.

I hope my posts are making sense and that my explantions are clear.

 

[LivewireBlanco]

I actually haven't gotten 1 inch groups from this rifle, but that's why I'm handloading for it. This rifle has had 84 rounds through it and the amount of copper I have pulled out was pretty big during the beginning but not anymore.

The early groups from 55-56.5gr the wind was relatively light and I didn't feel rushed. From 57-58gr is when the wind picked up and I may have been hurrying to finish, not to mention the wind was blowing.

As far as loading to the max, I didn't even start to get flat primers at 58 and the max load for this powder bullet combo is 59.3, so I would say 57gr isn't loading to the max charge. Either way, more testing is needed to validate my loads and that's exactly what I plan on doing. Thanks guys!