Need some help recommending a handgun

[ccw007]

We have a friend that wants to get a handgun. I can normally point someone in the right direction, but she has a few obstacles. First, she was born with arthritic and was put on medicine that stunted her growth, so she has very small hands and cannot handle a heavy pistol or one with much recoil. She also has almost no if any firearm experience. She is wanting something for home, but may want to get her CCW at some point.
My thought is a stainless S&W Model 60 with a 3” barrel and lady smith type grips. I think the new ones are just in 357 mag, but I could have her load it with 38s. I am not sure she would have the strength to put the factory double action trigger, so I would have her take it to a Gunsmith I know in Greensboro to help reduce the trigger pull some. Does this sound like a good choice for her?
Her neighbor was telling her to get a 22 handgun, but I told her that is not going to be enough to stop someone in most cases.

 

[Brian Williams]

If you are looking at the S&W 60 go for the Ladysmith version it will have a better trigger out of the box. Then have her dryfire it every night for a week, that will break in the gun and strengthen her hand. Then if she still needs it take it to a 'smith and have them work their magic.

 

[1911JMB]

In Guns and Ammo Wiley Clapp reccomended a top loading Beretta .380 to a guy with very damaged hands. They are light enough, they are easy to load because you don't need to rack it, and obviously the .380 is a soft shooter.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Her neighbor was telling her to get a 22 handgun, but I told her that is not going to be enough to stop someone in most cases.

A gun you can shoot is better than one you can't shoot. A good .22 is also much better to learn with. I would normally not recommend a .22 for defensive use, but this may be an exception, based on your description of the lady.

I'd take the lady shooting and let her try several guns, starting with a .22. You may find the normal advice, "A revolver is best for beginners" doesn't hold here, since both double-action shooting and thumb-cocking may be difficult for her.

 

[JBP]

A gun you can shoot is better than one you can't shoot.

Have to agree with Vern. My wife is on the petite size (under 5') and has arthritis is both her hands as well as carpal tunnel syndrome in her right hand. She had trouble racking the slide of all my semi-autos and could not handle the DAO of my Taurus 85CH. The one revolver of mine that she could handle, both in single action and recoil, was both of my H&R R73's in .32 Mag. When it came down to it the one she liked the best was my friend's Beretta Bobcat in .22LR so for an anniversary present I bought her one. I've since picked up a Beretta Jetfire in 25 ACP which is less finicky with ammo and holds one more round. The Beretta tip-up barrels are nice. They don't make the Jetfire anymore but the Tomcat comes in .32ACP and the Bobcat comes in .22LR and .25ACP.

 

[ccw007]

Thanks for the tips... My problem with the 22 is that I think she had a false sense of security over its capabilities. The 380 and the 32 were two others I thought might be a good choice. I am not sure what kind of strength she has in her hand, but next time she comes over I was going to have her try my model 60 trigger and if that works I could run her down to the range to try 38’s in it. I really feel she would be best with a revolver though, but a Beretta Tomcat was another one I thought about.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My problem with the 22 is that I think she had a false sense of security over its capabilities.

Is this lady going out and looking for trouble?

If not, the only role a sense of security, false or not, will play in her use of this gun is that she will be more confident when confronted, and the person confronting her will sense that and be less likely to continue his actions against her.

 

[ccw007]

Is this lady going out and looking for trouble?

I would not say she would be looking for trouble, but she wants a gun for when things go bump in the night. The vibe I got was that if she had a gun she would be more likely to investigate when the dogs are barking or when she hears a noise. Therefore, in that sense she could be going out finding trouble. She was thinking a 22 could reliably produce one shot stops and that is just not the case most of the time. I have only spoken to her briefly about this and she had some interest in getting a CCW, which I think the class would be good for her even if she does not apply for the permit.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I would not say she would be looking for trouble, but she wants a gun for when things go bump in the night. The vibe I got was that if she had a gun she would be more likely to investigate when the dogs are barking or when she hears a noise.

If she needs a gun, she also needs training. Training should stress that house-clearing is not for amateurs, and not something even professionals should try single-handed.

Compared to shotguns and rifles, handguns are woefully underpowered. No one should feel overconfident in the ability of any handgun to stop an assailant with one shot. And that should also be part of her training.

 

[ccw007]

Vern I could not agree more and plan to touch on these topics with her. When we talked we did not have time to get into training other then her asking me if I would teacher her to shoot. If she goes through with getting a handgun, I am going to push her to take some NRA courses and the CCW class. I think the CCW class here is great because the depth in which they cover the use of deadly force.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'd gather up several guns and take her shooting. Let her pick what's most comfortable for her.

As for myself, I'm fair-to-middlin' with a handgun, and I keep a Colt 357 in the nightstand drawer. But beside the nightstand (and a lot quicker to get to) is an Ithaca Model 37 loaded with 00 buckshot.

 

[Sport45]

She is wanting something for home, but may want to get her CCW at some point.

Point her towards a 20 gauge pump with a 18-20 inch barrel and a improved cylinder choke. Load it with low brass shells in #4 shot or larger. Get a 100rd box of birdshot at Walmart for $15 and take her to the range to shoot and get a good feel for what the gun can do. Tell her to keep the shotgun and a cell phone near her bed. When things go bump in the night she should call the police in hands-free mode and cover the door with the shotty.

I know, I know, this is a handgun forum. But in this case I don't think a handgun is the best answer. Down the road, when she wants to get a CCW she should get a handgun she can handle and practice, practice, practice.

 

[Clipper]

I'd recommend a Walther PPK/S, or better yet, a beretta .380 with the tip-up barrel. Arthritic hands would not need to rack a slide to charge the Beretta, and/or the weight of a larger-framed gun like the Walther would soak up much of the recoil of the .380.

 

[aggie]

My $.02

<SARCASM>
Let me establish my "qualifications" to comment here.

FWIW, I have both hands, wrists and forearms deformed from birth & believe I may know "something" about what she's looking for. I was born w/o thumbs, two off-set, or club, wrists and one shortened forearm with only one, not two, bones in. The "good" side has one of the forearm bones shorter than it should be, complicating the wrist function further. Early corrective surgery got the "bad" hand working fairly well. The right, or good, hand is "unmodified."
<SARCASM>

In addition, I have a bit of experience with a couple of the suggestion mentioned above.

Enough of my "qualifications."

870 - See how well she can handle a short, or "youth" sized shotgun. I find 20 ga easier to handle for HD though I can handle a 12 ga.

Beretta 3032 Tomcat - I'm on my 2nd one & found that both have EXTREMELY heavy DA pull and both have almost too heavey SA trigger pull. In fact, the SA feels like DA on any thing else I own. The tip-up barrell is nice but watch out for the trigger pull. Recoil w/ Silvertips is a bit sharp but not objectionable IMNSHO.

Beretta 380 Auto in flip-up barrell. This is the Model 86 and I believe it is out of production. I had one & sorely regret letting it go. The tip-up barrell turned out to be no big deal for me, but the slimmer grips for the single-stack mag made a difference recognized only with the passing of time. I currently carry a M84 & its DA & SA trigger pulls are similar to other quality guns. MUCH lighter than the Tomcat.

Revolver - I know that I can handle a K-frame or J-frame in .357 OK. Having said that, I have found that the extra mass of the .357 aids in recoil control when shooting .38 +Ps through a J- or K-frame. I've carried both. Works for me.

Anything - IF she goes for a handgun, PLEASE make sure she learns early on about finding one that FITS HER HANDS and not buying anything else. With my "weird" hands, for some reason, I did not learn that lesson until many, many dollars were spent on ill-fitting guns.

In my mind, the MOST IMPORTANT is getting the grip properly seated into her hand and making sure her trigger finger strikes the trigger at or just before the first crease.​

OK - I'm through venting.

Please, do teach her to have fun. Stay with a .22 until she decides guns are fun. Then, maybe she'll practice and get her CHL and maybe even get out and shoot IDPA or something.

 

[Jim Watson]

Time to think outside the box.
We are not trying to make a cop or soldier out of her. Maybe she will be a sportswoman, maybe not. If Ccw007 is willing to provide some ONGOING help, she can defend herself adequately.

If she picks an auto, she doesn't have to rack the slide.
Ccw007 can do it for her and leave her with a loaded gun.

If she prefers a revolver, she doesn't have to pull through a DA revolver trigger, she can ear back the hammer with her off hand and get off aimed shots as was routine in Century XIX.

She doesn't have to drop and replace a magazine or swing out a cylinder for a hasty reload, or deal with a malfunction; if one gun load doesn't handle the problem, she can apply the New York Reload... pick up another gun.

Remember your history.
James Butler Hickok never racked a slide, probably never seriously pulled a double action trigger, and never made a speed reload. But he was reasonably successful with a pair of cap and ball revolvers.

Guns:
A round butted K-Smith .38 revolver loaded with however hot a load she can handle for six shots. Enough power, manageable size, enough ballast to damp recoil.
A single stack 9mm, maybe a Kahr if she can roll the 7 lb DAO, loaded with standard pressure hollowpoints.

NOT a .380. A blowback .380 has sharper recoil than a locked breech 9mm. My Kahr and SA UC are much more comfortable to shoot than a PP .380.

 

['Card]

I'd add another vote for the .380 Berettas. My 11-year old son has fired one of those (with my immediate supervision, naturally) and he didn't have any problems at all with the mechanism or the recoil. At the very least, I'll bet you could find one to rent that she could try out. If it wasn't comfortable for her, then you could always look into the .22's.

 

[gazpacho]

If her hands are really small, then you might consider finding a Star SS in 32acp. The Star SS is a high quality version of the Llama micro, basically a minaturized 1911.

Firestorm sells their rebadged Bersa in 32acp with a 10 round magazine. If you replace the rubber grips with thin plastic grips, it would be easier to her to grip. I haven't fired one before, but recoil should be better than any 380, and certinly better than a Walther PP in 32acp. The frame is alloy, so the handgun is lighter in weight.

If she can handle a semiauto with a thicker grip, I can recommend the CZ-83, also in 32acp. Recoil is light, DA trigger is long and light and SA trigger is short and light. 15+1 capacity helps make up for 32 acp. If you precock the hammer, racking the slide is easy. The frame is steel, so it will weigh more.

For home defense, I'd recommend the M1 Carbine from Auto Ordinance. Loaded up with Corbon Defense loads, this would put some serious firepower in her hands. Small, reliable, low maintenance rifle with low recoil. Good cartridge. High capacity magazine.

 

[Tigerseye]

Try a 3" Taurus Model 85 in .38 special and get some Fiocchi .38 spl. full wadcutter target ammo.


Tigerseye

 

[ugaarguy]

There was a similar thread here a while back. I remember aggie and a few others with conditions like his posting. From that post I think aggie is the most qualified here to answer the question posed. Lemme find that other thread...here; http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=188629.

 

[akodo]

definately, here the rules are a little different. If a .22 is the most that can be handled, it is the most that can be handled.

A few ideas and comments.

I am suspicous this person's hands are small. In general for women I recommend single stack magazine designs. I have seen too many women who struggled with a fat 15 round 9mm design but who could handle a 1911 or a sig 220 in 45acp just fine even though '45s are too big for women!'. The deal was the thinner grip fit the hand better. I'd definately recommend looking for a thin gun.

A lot of people have mentioned the tip up beretta 380, which is good, but they also make a non-tipup one that is a single stack, which to me would fit the bill as well.

you may want to have a gunsmith put in a little lighter spring, making the slide easier to rack, as well as getting a trigger job.

 

[wbond]

Jeeze. That's a tough set of circumstances.

I've got arthritis really bad myself and a lot of hand and wrist problems, but at least my hands are full size for a man. Also, I've got prior handgun experience.

I can't say for sure what would be best for her, but I can tell you my best guesses based on my experiences. Then have her try them at a rent a gun range if possible.

First the don'ts, then the maybes, then the likely candidates:

Do NOTs

.357 Mag revolvers shooting .38s have low enough recoil for me, but those guns are way to big and heavy for a little lady with small hands. There's no way she's going to like those.

I've found the .38 Spl small frames are murder on my hands. Those are out. Even in stainless steel or steel at a weight of 23 oz they are out. I really like the Taurus 3" barrel small frame .38 Spl, but my hands cannot take it even with standard pressure ammo. So I can confidently recommend that you forget about small frame .38s. Sorry.

The Beretta Bobcat .32 is miserable for me. This is mainly due to the difficult trigger pull. Remember that she has probably a weak finger. The recoil really hurt my hand. I can't recommend the Bobcat.

The Walther PPK/S I tried had a horribly difficult 17 pound trigger pull and a very difficult to pull slide. Additionally Walther is known for jamming with hollow points. I can't recommend Walther.

I do not recommend any .22 LR handguns because the stopping potential is pitiful. I think this would be worse than no gun.

I do not recommend a .22 Mag auto because I feel that the rim fire makes misfires a possiblity and that is a problem with an auto. Also, the rim itself may make failure to feeds more likely.

Maybes

I'm quite fond off .22 Mag 4" barrel revolvers because they offer good penetration and some expansion. I think some decent 3 round stopping potential is offered from a 4" barrel revolver. The 2" barrel versions don't have the velocity to be good for SD. I like 4" for SD, but not 2".

.22 Mag revolver trigger pulls are at the top end of my tolerance. I recommend she test some of these out. Taurus makes some really nice 2" and the best 4" with 8 rounds. I'm wearing the Taurus 4" right now. The 2" barrel .22 mags are all small frame and would fit a small hand perfectly (but little stopping potential from a 2" barrel). Unfortuneatly, the trigger pull is stiff on all rimfire revolvers, which may be the deal killer here.

Ruger SP101 .32 Mag with 3" barrel is an excellent gun for recoil senstive people. It has the best and lightest DA trigger pull out of the box of any revolver I've ever tried. It's a dandy gun, but the grip is a bit small for my hand. That might mean it'd fit the lady's hand perfect. The only problem is that the recoil is right at the top of my tolerance on my good days. On my bad days the recoil is too much for me. Therefore, I don't know if the lady could handle the recoil or not. It's borderline on recoil. It's also a bit heavy to conceal and carry.

Likely Candidates

I really like my Firestorm .32 ACP. I suggest she try a Firestorm .32 (made by Bersa, but imported and assembled in USA by Firestorm). It's a dandy and much better than a Bersa because the Firestorm's have rubber grips and are available in .32 ACP (as well as .380). This small, thin, single stack gun is just about ideal for a person with arthritis and small hands. The slide and trigger are very easy. Safety is not easy, but can be carried with safety off.

I just ordered a Bersa high cap .380 that is a steel frame weighing 30 oz empty. It has a 15+1 capacity. This should have very little recoil, fair stopping potential, and lots of ammo. However, I'll put Firestorm type rubber grips on it. I ordered this from http://www.impactguns.com/store
This gun sounds ideal for a person with arthritis, but I haven't shot it yet. The double stack grip will be wider. So that might not be good for small hands. The slide and trigger are very easy. Safety is not easy, but can be carried with safety off. (I handled one of these guns in my local gun store)

I just learned of the FN 5.7 pistol. I want to learn more about this gun. It sounds ideal for a person with arthrits and I think its stopping potential should be around a .380, but with less recoil and more ammo. However, I'm no expert on this gun. I'm still learning about it myself. It should be an ideal gun for me since it should also fit my hands.

I think the FN 5.7 pistol would also be ideal for this lady, if it's not to large for her hands. If it is to large, then I recommend the Firestorm .32 ACP.

===========================

Money

The above were recommended without regard to price. The FN 5.7 is expensive at $850. The other best choice is the Firestorm .32, which costs $250. The Ruger SP101 .32 Mag cost me $400 at my local gun store. I don't think the SP101 is quite as good for her as the FN 5.7 or the Firestorm .32, but maybe she'd like the SP101. Those are local gun store prices. They would each be about $50 less money if bought online.

If money is an issue, then the Firestorm .32 is the only option. It's a darn good gun. I like my first Firestorm .32 matte black so much that I bought a second one in nickel.

==========================

Bottom line

For shooting the FN 5.7 would be best if it fits her small hands, but it might be too big. The Firestorm .32 would likely be very good for her and is easily affordable, small and easy to carry. For a house gun the FN 5.7 has great potential for this lady. For a carry gun the Firestorm .32 is best.

At least those are my opinions. As a handicapped shooter with arthritis, I think I can understand the lady's problems pretty well.

 

[wbond]

A few more thoughts...

http://www.gundirectory.com offers a regular smorgass board of .32s, .380, etc.

In my experience, any .32 ACP under 21 oz tends to kick to much for arthritic hands and any .32 heavier than 26 oz I won't carry. For example, I won't carry my 28 oz CZ-83 .32 ACP (double stack to wide for me, let alone a little lady). This puts the Firestorm .32 at perfection of 23 oz.

The Taurus .32 Millenium is a bit lighter than ideal, but I think it might have a locked breech, which would reduce recoil. Not sure about that. I'm looking into it for myself. I'd suggest you also look into the Taurus .32 Millenium.

I would avoid .22 LR as too weak, .22 Mag as to heavy a trigger pull in a revolver and not reliable in an auto, and avoid .25 ACPs as the plague. I think .25 ACPs are cursed and a bottle of mace would be better.

For home defense, a 20 guage Remington or Browning gas operated auto shotgun can't be beat. Recoil is almost nothing from a gas operated 20 guage, but the stopping potential and liklihood of hits are excellent. I used to own a gas operated Remington 12 guage. The recoil was light even from the 12 guage. I would avoid pump guns as they kick like mules from an arthritic's point of view.

 

[wbond]

Ammo choices

The Corbon Powerball is a favorite of mine because it reduces felt recoil due to lighter bullets, but still offers good smack on target.

It is also less likely to jam due to the "ball" giving it the shape of FMJ.

The ball also prevents clothing from clogging the hollow point.

For this lady, I'd recommend .32 ACP Powerball in the gun of your choosing. I do think the Firestorm or Taurus Millenium .32 will be best for her, but perhaps there are other good .32s for her.

As for myself, I have hopes that Powerball will allow me to step up from .380 to 9mm without hurting my arthritic hands.

 

[Trebor]

Ok, I have a couple different suggestions depending on exactly what she wants to do with the gun.

If it is for home defense ONLY, I'd skip the handgun entirely. Why go to the trouble when a long gun will be easier for her to operate and shoot?

I'd reccomend something light weight, that fires a decent cartridge, and is easy to handle.

My first choice is a M-1 Carbine. The new Kahr carbines are generally cheaper then mil-surp guns and have gotten OK reviews. The carbine is lightweight and easy to shoot. The op-rod does not take a lot of strength to work the action and the leverage also makes it easier than racking the slide on an auto pistol. I reccomend Winchester 110 gr HP rounds for defensive use.

Another option is a pistol caliber carbine. The Ruger PC 9 is cheaper then the Berretta Storm. The Hi Point actually gets good reviews as well. I've never handled one though, so I don't know how easy it is to use.

A youth or "Bantam" model 20 gauge or even .410 shotgun is another choice. I'd steer clear of the 12 gauge with her hand strength issues.

If she decides to carry, then she should look for a handgun. I reccomend she first take the NRA Basic Pistol class or some equivilant training before buying a handgun.

She may want to look for a used gun that's been "broken in" more than a NIB gun. It is often easier to work the slide on a used gun then the same gun NIB.

I've found the Sig 239 works well for students with limited hand strength. The slide is large and easy to grasp and the recoil spring doesn't seem to be excessively strong. It could just be my gun though. She should try it for herself.

For a revolver, I reccomend a K-frame over a J-frame. The trigger and lockwork geometry is different in the J-frames and they tend to have heavier trigger pulls. The smaller size of the gun also often make them harder to operate. I suggest a standard K-frame .38 with a 3" or 4" barrel. She'll have to hunt for one used.

 

[Atchafalaya]

home defense

Sport45 has it right. A 20ga. pump. My house hose is a plugless 870 express youth model, improoved cylinder, loaded with 2 3/4" #4, with 4 more and 4 #3 buck ready on the stock.