Need some information on .44 Cal Black Powder Pistol

[DFisher3112]

I have a couple of older revolvers that were left to me a very long time ago by a relative that has passed away. I'm looking to gain some information on both of these items in order to sell them.

The first one is marked Navy Arms Co. Ridgefield N.J. on the top of the barrel and on the side is marked Black Powder Only 44 Cal.








The second on has no indications of what type of gun it is whether its black powder or not.





Any information would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Starter52]

The first one is a fairly common Italian copy of the 1851 Colt, but in .44 caliber and with a brass frame.

 

[DFisher3112]

What is the going rate for the first pistol?

 

[rodwha]

The other appears to be a London model Colt 1851 Navy (.36 caliber). It's the only one with a blued steel backstrap that I'm aware of.

Are there no markings at all on it?

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

The first one is a Griswold and Gunnison Replica made by Pietta (but in 44Cal instead of 36).
It was imported by Navy Arms, who acquired Replica Arms. Your third image shows the old Replica Arms logo.

You would probably get $50 offered for it as a trade in.
There is some recent interest in the Griswold and Gunnison's with the Hell on Wheels TV series. Values can be pretty subjective but I'd say you would be quite lucky to find a buyer willing to pay any more than $150.

Fourth image shows the <FAP> Pietta logo

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

As far as the second one goes, in case you have any question, it is a BLACK POWDER ONLY REVOLVER as evidenced by percussion cap nipples most obviously.
It is a replica of a 1851 Colt Navy and looks to be the correct 36 Cal based on what looks to be a straight water table and a cylinder that appears to be a six shooter.
The shape of the grips and grip frame leads me to speculate it is also made by Pietta.
The finish looks questionable to me, has it possibly been spray painted?

 

[DFisher3112]

Malachi Leviticus Blue,

I'm unsure on the second gun and what was done to it. Like I said, I inherited both of these and their history is unknown.

I'm guessing that I could probably get $100 for the first black powder 44 Cal pistol?

Any idea what I could get for the second one if I could find some sort of markings in order to identify it?

 

[Crawdad1]

Date stamped 1980 for the brasser, but value, that's a hard question, Throw them up on an auction sire and see what they bring. Sometimes you can buy a brand new brasser for $150 bucks.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I wouldn't worry too much about not finding any markings on the second one if your goal it to just sell them, but if you're interested, often there are proof and makers marks on the bottom of the barrel, under the loading lever, right up near the frame.
Your best bet to liquidate, would be to take as good of pictures as you can and put them up on Gunbroker. They both would likely sell for about the same amount. I'd predict a sell price over $100 each, but not necessarily much.
If you know someone who is interested and is willing to offer up $100 each and you can be done with it, take it.

 

[kBob]

The first gun seems properly identified......but I can't see anyone that knows what they are doing paying more than $50 for it. It has been mistreated a good bit.

The nipples have been mushroomed that we can see, most likely by dry firing. Snapping the hammer down on unprotected nipples is not good for them and this appears to have been done a whole lot.

Second look at the cylinder notches and especially the damage between them. That is what a gun that has been fanned by someone playing with it a lot. I would bet the notches on the back of the cylinder have been wacked up as much by the hand as the cylinder has been by the bolt. If the gun ever had safety pins they are likely either stripped off or hammered over like bent nails.

Unless someone is willing to put a good bit of personal effort and time into that thing it might best be mounted in a shadow box frame with an attractive background and hung on the wall.


I am not sure the second gun is a gun. Look at the color of the metal where it shows through the "finish". It looks suspiciously like zinc. Replica Models used to sell zinc models of the 1851 and 1860 Colts back in the 1970s for folks that could not have guns. They made modern zinc replicas as well. Some were good enough one could learn not only manual of arms but disassembly and reassembly well enough to do so on the real weapons. The magazine from a RM 1911A1 I had functioned in a number of real 1911 types and the magazine from a P38 RM toy functioned in a real P38 for example. There SMGs were VERY GOOD models externally and fooled more than a few folks. These toys were made for sale in Japan which has VERY harsh gun laws but a lot of folks interested in guns ( I wish the comics I read as a kid had the sort of gun details seen in Japanese comics and animation today).

edit: Looking at the cylinder pictures it appears the nipples lack shoulders for using a nipple wrench on and appear to be cast as part of the cylinder. Looks even more like a non functional model on second view.

I could be completely wrong but that is what the pictures of the second reminded me of.

-kBob

 

[Mike OTDP]

Photos of the top of the barrel of the second revolver would be useful, as well as photos of the left side. Also check under the loading lever for markings.

 

[rodwha]

Good eye kBob!

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I believe that some Non-Firing replicas have blocked barrels and/or chambers.

See if a pencil goes all the way down the barrel.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Upon review, on the first one, it looks like you have a broken spring or something worse. The trigger is setting too far back.

On the second one, the finish does look odd, but I still don't think it is zinc. The crispness on the cylinder engraving after all the wear speaks of steel to me.

Does a magnet stick? Does it stick with authority?

 

[mr wack]

The second revolver is a puzzle for sure, if you look at the rear hammer sight notch it looks alot like the Schneider and glassick ,,, rectangular not v'd .
Interesting, colt cylinder and not colt hammer ( just my take, prolly wrong,) ,,,,,, Frankenvolver...

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

It's not uncommon for folks to open up and or deepen the sight notch on the hammer to achieve point of aim or widen the sight picture.

 

[mr wack]

Yup you're right I have done it myself but that looks like it was done at the factory not by a fella with a file or dremel ,

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Did anyone besides High Standard even market a brass frame revolver as a Schneider and glassick? I didn't think any one else did. I've always heard that the cheapest version if an 1851 Colt navy repro had a brass frame and plain cylinder. Then, folks shooting them just started calling them Schneider and glassick's because that was a more accurate description of what the Italians ended up building.

My point being here, that square notch or "V" notch, I think it was intended to be an 1851 Colt navy either way, so that hammer is most likely the original. I don't think any of the replica manufactures (besides maybe High Standard) would have ever purposefully added a square notch to specifically replicate a Schneider and glassick. I'm not even sure if Schneider and glassicks even had square notches. There are only 2 of the brass framed originals known to exist right?

I've seen FIE imported versions of the 1851 Colt navy with square notches, but I don't ever recall Piettas ever having a square notch. So good evidence that it's probably not a Pietta if the notch is original.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

On the second gun, in the first picture, it looks like one of the cylinder notches has holes in it. It also has a very large hole or cut out of some sort in the hammer channel.

I believe I do see square shoulders on the nipples of this gun, they are just very deeply set in. They are visible in the photo with the hammer cocked.

Is there any serial number on this gun?

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

In the condition these guns are in I would pay $75.00 maybe $100.00 tops for both of them, mainly just to practice gunsmithing on them. I have bought and sold a lot better guns than these for $100-125. in the past couple of years. If you think these guns are worth $150.00 each I have a couple of steel framed 1851's in excellent condition in comparison to these for $250. each. Tight lockup, no battered cylinder notches, no corrosion and very, very light turn lines. The line starts here.

 

[Stormson]

Yup, the first one is a Pietta "G&G". I have the same gun in my stable... In almost as bad a shape too! LOL

Second one also seems to NOT have a spring on the upper part of the wedge, where it protrudes through on the right side? I could be wrong, but those nipples also seem to far too flat with far too small a hole? Not sure about a shoulder.. I just cant tell. If its a real gun Id say those nipples have been badly abused as well, but them being "weird" and the wedge not being right.. Plus the strange square sight (High Standard woulda been on a brass frame wouldnt it?)... Im thinking non firing replica.

Shrugs... Id take a chance on em for $100 for both. Shipped. I can use some of the first ones parts.. possibly rebuild it...But lets face it, as it sets its just a fancy box of various parts LOL. And I doubt the second one is a gun. If you feel like gambling OP let me know by PM... At least we can find out if it IS a real gun or not?

 

[Panzerschwein]

Do they shoot? Go out and make some smoke with them, they aren't worth much other than for that.

 

[44-henry]

I think the advice you received on the first is sound, but something about the second does not feel quite right. It might not be anything, or it might be. I would take it to a reputable gun shop and have it looked over. I would not sell it untill you get a couple different opinions and do a lot more research. You might also consider posting this on a forum that deals specifically with black powder firearms.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The second gun looks a great deal like a pot metal repligun. Thousands of them were sold back 35 yrs ago. They were even packaged like real replica firearms. They are props, man cave decorations and sure to cause injury if a person tried to fire one. Denix guns still sell on the net and ebay. Please have a knowledgeable person check that gun. Some unscrupulous mail order outfits evedescribed them in a way that folks thought were shooters. They even made Sharps rifle wall hangers that looked real from 5 ft away.

 

[kBob]

Zimmershutz,

Yes my goodness! There was a Root 1855 rifle that got me off the street in San Francisco and into a camera shop I almost never escaped from. Multiple sales men decended on me that knew just what accessories to pitch based on my camera bags alone.

Back in 1973 I was walking the streets of Leesville LA (without a hazmat suit and mask) when a poster for replica models drew Gene and I into the store seeking such toys. No toys just the poster to draw such as us in. It was a jewelry shop. They wanted to sell us "Official" Army rings and Air borne rings and Special Forces rings and you name it. One sales person spoke to us briefly about the poster saying they could order anything on it (so could we of course) then proceeded to attempt to hard sell "Mother's Day Rings" to us. Gene went into a shaking lip quiver and cried "I.....I... I joined the Army to forget. My....my...my.....MY MOTHER IS DEAD!"

Everyone made way for us to leave at that point and we disturbed a hooker in the alley next to the store with our almost falling down laughter. His mother was fine of course, and latter wrote he should be ashamed and to bad it had not been filmed.

At various times I have played with various Replica Models guns and most were quite good for fooling folks at a distance. I myself was fooled by a Danish 1949 SMG until I got it in hand. I caused no end of trouble with a "blank" firing P38 and "blank firing "Thompson 1928A1. The Thompson actually cycled and spit out the "brass." Lots of fun.

-kBob