Nepalese P1853 - good "shooter" prospect?

[DutchmanDick]

I went ahead and ordered one of the "untouched" P1853 Enfield rifled muskets from IMA yesterday. I'm keeping my fingers crossed as to barrel condition. I've wanted a rifled musket for many years, and the Italian replicas have always been out of my reach, price-wise. At $240.00, the Nepalese guns seemed like they'd make a good "work-on-it-a-little-at-a-time" project, and even if I eventually put as much money into it as a replica would cost (though the cost could be spread out over time), I'd still have an original gun and not some eye-tie replica. Mind you, I'm not looking for pinpoint target-grade accuracy, as long as it will safely fire a Minie-ball over the prescribed 65-grain powder charge, and maybe knock a deer or elk over at 100 yards reliably.

Has anyone had any luck turning one of these into a "shooter" (as opposed to just a "wallhanger", which I HATE with a passion!)? I've heard that many of these are actually in halfway decent shape under all the accumulated crud (with the exception of some possible dry-rot on the stocks and pitting of the metal under the wood)

 

[Rachen]

Are they originals???

 

[DutchmanDick]

Yes, they actually are original P1853 Enfields, and not "Khyber guns". They were in storage in the Royal Armory in Nepal. Many are NOT of British make, but rather of local manufacture to British specs. They appear to be 2nd model 3-band rifled muskets. They are being sold in "as-is" condition, and appear to have been coated in some sort of animal fat mixture prior to storage.

 

[scrat]

we need pics for sure

 

[arcticap]

What can you tell us about this IMA outfit? What's their location and contact info.?

 

[Oldnamvet]

What you are looking for?
http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/cPath/29_234/products_id/2033

 

[4v50 Gary]

You can always have Bobby Hoyt of Der Freischutz shop reline the barrel.

 

[bigjohnson]

The short answer to your question is "NO".

First of all, the quality of these guns is minimal. Secondly, they have been stored in questionable conditions for over a century.

The gun you'll get will be a hanger, not a banger. IMA is not the kind of place where one will get a great deal on a desireable antique firearm. The Nepalese stuff was brought into this country by IMA and by Atlanta Cutlery. Their ads read like the ads for Mitchell's Mausers, and their guns are about as collectable.

If you want a RELIABLE muzzle-loading musket, keep your eyes out for an English made Parker-Hale. I'm not talking about the abortion marketed by Navy Arms, or the Italian ones currently made by Euroarms, but the English made guns from the 1970s. They are beautifully made, highly accurate, and hold their value well. I see them every now and then on GunBroker for $700 or so.

 

[Z71]

I bought one of the Nepal cache P1853 rifles a couple months back. My second Nepalese gun, as I had bought a Martini Henry MkII rifle last year.

My Martini is perfectly shootable, although it did need some wood repair.

The P53 is scarier! Its functional, it could have fired right out of IMA's box. My rifled musket, had a cracked stock, rotten places on the stock, worm holes in the stock, a lot of rust under the barrel, all the wood screws were rotten, barrel bands except one were loose, rear band spring is thrashed, bore is only so-so, had to install a thread repair sleeve for the nipple threads plus install a new nipple, will require a new mainspring(cracked, still works) plus a trigger spring likely!

Mine will repair into a modest charge/load plinker. No telling if it will shoot worth a hoot, but maybe so. I'm not expecting it to be a match rifle. I'm definately going to lash it to a tire for the first few shots.

My musket appears to be somewhat better than average, but I've seen pics of a luckey few fellows that received pretty decent muskets. Others received complete junk! The rifled musket I received appeared as if it had been used hard for a few decades. Carried up and down the Himalaya's until it was just about to fall apart, then tossed in the pile of muskets!

It does appear as if it had once been a fairly decently made musket when new. The lock fit, and the metal parts were nicely made and fitted originaly. Likely not equivelant to a original Londen Armory P53, but much better than Khyber pass quality!

Definately a gamble on these. Could very well receive a tomatoe stake. I noticed they lowered the price $10, and changed the return policy since I ordered mine. I bet most of the better muskets are gone, but thats just me guessing!

 

[bigjohnson]

I just spent some time carefully looking over the pictures of these guns that are shown on IMA's website.
$240 for a piece of junk like that? TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY DOLLARS??? PLUS SHIPPING???To be quite candid, I wouldn't pay TWENTY FOUR dollars for one. As a matter of fact, if you offered me one for free, I wouldn't take it. I've got enough junk in my gun room, and no need or desire for more.
Save your money. There are decent 1853 Pattern Enfields out there for under $1500. For $2000 you can get a really decent Springfield musket.

 

[Rebel Dave]

I wouldn't pay $2.40 for one. I've seen guns of this nature before, and most can't even be used as parts guns, they are just plain junk.

Dutchmandick,.... I would get your money back and run.

You would be better off getting an Italian Repo, and tuning it, they can be picked up used for around $300.00 and up,at gun shows, etc. most of the time they will need a trigger job on the lock,and sighting in.
Good Luck what ever you do.

Rebel dave (still unreconstructed)

 

[Dithsoer]

Dutchman,
Get it. It's $250. Other guys are telling you that you can get something better for $2000 plus? I'm sure that if you had that kind of money to spend on something like this that you wouldn't be looking at this particular gun anyway. You might get lucky and get a good one. Do they have hand picked models? With a few places in the past, I've asked to speak to the people involved in picking out the guns and asked them if they could pick out a nice one for me. I explained my limited funds and my hopes of getting something nice for collecting and they obliged me. Might work here, might not. If there are a lot of these out there that are junk, chances are you might be able to find someone selling the better parts of their rifle for parts in an attempt to get some of their money back. If you like the idea of working on something like this, fixing things yourself, looking for the parts you need (or making your own),etc. you'll cetainly have a closer connection with the gun when you're done. Who knows? Maybe a few friends will follow your lead and buy one themselves and offer you a bit of money to get theirs shooting too. If the bore is really messed up, you can always have it smooth-bored and use it as a shot-gun.

 

[DutchmanDick]

Well, it's supposed to arrive Monday, so we'll see what it looks like. The guns are sold "as-is", with no choice as to what you get. It does say on the website that the ones pictured aren't the best examples of what they have, but are representative of what you may get. Reproduction parts are available from The Rifle Shoppe http://www.therifleshoppe.com. I bought the gun with the idea that it would be an extended do-it-yourself project, and not necessarily a "clean-it-up-and-shoot-it" gun - though who knows? I might just get lucky...

 

[bigjohnson]

Dithsoer...
Did you even LOOK at the pictures on IMA's website? I can't believe that you did. There's no way I can conceive of that any reasonably knowledgable gun person could recommend that ANYONE should buy one of those pieces of junk. Even if you're Joe Yuppie with more money than brains, and just want an "old gun" to hang over the fireplace, those THINGS from IMA are no bargain. DutchmanDick can certainly find a better piece at any gun show... plus he'll have the advantage of being able to see what he's buying before he plunks down his hard-earned cash.

 

[arcticap]

Quicksdraw sez, "Just hoooooooold on a NY minute there Babbalouie!"

I go to antique gun shows often enough to see some really junky antique muzzle loaders being offered at even higher prices.
Any brand new modern firearm usually has its fair share of manufacturing flaws which increases the final cost too, and that's if the flaws can even be worked out.
This is a bona fide piece of history that has an intrinsic value in its own right, whether it works or is rusty junk or not. It is worth whatever someone wants to pay for it.
Even IMA paid something to the people in Nepal for it. They did store it for ~150 years or whatever.
Sure there's arms that many of us would rather have, but I now refuse to criticize what someone else may want. I made that mistake recently with the Cabela's 1873 Cattleman which I came to the wrong conclusion about.
So, if DutchmanDick wants one and is willing to post about it, then I'm not only happy for him, but I appreciate being informed about the IMA website and simply learning about the Enfield's existence.
Even if he's unhappy and does decide to sell it, he could probably get most of his money back just because it is authentic, maybe even more $ if he cleans it up really nice.
So I say good luck with it and let us all know how it works out and whether he ends up being happy with the purchase.
The piece looks pretty neat, especially if someone has some restoration skills. Personally, I thought that the gun looked shootable if someone really wanted to try to shoot one. Even if a person just wanted to shoot blanks out of it just for the thrill of re-living an era of history. A non-firing replica Enfield would probably cost even more than $240.
It would at the very least become a valued & treasured wall hanger.

 

[Z71]

I was digging around online, and you are not going to find a rifled musket, regular musket, any sort of original muzzleloading military longarm in any condition for $240!

I have to say that I am absolutely thrilled with my Nepal P1853 rifle. It probably really should be a wall hanger, and I'm going to use it as such myself. Thats not to say I don't intend to see if it will shoot. Just that the muskets old and pitted, likely I'll just try a modest 40-50 gr. charge behind a patched ball, if it shoots ok fine. If it bursts....well too bad. I paid $250 for a gun advertised as a wall hanger, it has possibilitys so I'm working it into a condition that I consider shootable.

My musket will never be new again. Honestly, if I were looking to use one of these for hunting, I would invest $500 or so and get a new reproduction P53 rifled musket. The barrels are thicker, and metal is modern steel. I would imagine the Nepalese P1853 muskets are barreled in wrought iron!

 

[DutchmanDick]

Well, despite the UPS tracking saying my musket would not arrive until Monday, I got a pleasant surprise - it arrived Friday! I didn't get it until today, as I had gone out of town for the weekend (UPS put it in the garage).

What did I get...?

I must say I am quite pleased! It is completely intact - no parts missing. The barrel bands are all slightly loose - I'm guessing the wood of the stock has shrunk slightly. All three band springs are there, though the rear one is either caked up with gunk or is broken under all the grime. No really big deal, as The Rifle Shoppe sells replacements. The rear sight slider is also loose (won't hold its position on the sight leaf), but can probably be tightened up. The lock mechanism works perfectly, even has a strong half-cock notch! There is a minor crack in the stock near the wrist that can be repaired. One of the buttplate screws (the second one, one at the upper "bend" of the plate) has been replaced with a nail (again, no big deal - wood screws are easy to find). There is some light surface rust in what I can see of the bore, but the 3 rifling grooves appear to be strong and not badly damaged by poor cleaning rod useage. The cleaning rod itself is badly bent up and the cupped end that slips over the minie-ball nose is battered, but replacements are $19.95 from Dixie Gunworks. The nipple is likewise battered beyond use, but - $2.50 from DGW. I'll have to take it all apart and clean it up good to be certain, but it looks like I may have a shooter! I think it is well worth the $240.00 IMA is asking, if you are willing to take a chance on what you get - and they WILL give a full refund if you haven't tried to clean it up (though you have to pay the return shipping). Kudos for IMA!

 

[DutchmanDick]

BTW, is anyone familiar enough with the P1853 Enfield to tell me what the difference was between the "sergeant's tool" and the "private's tool" that was an accessory screwdriver/nipple wrench combo tool that was an accessory for these guns?

 

[DutchmanDick]

I wonder how well acetone would work for cleaning the grunge off the gun? Somebody on the "British Gun Pub" forum said that oven cleaner will attack the wood of the stock (and I suppose it wouldn't do the metal much good, either, as it's caustic). I'm sure denatured alcohol would work OK on the metal, but how would it effect the wood? For that matter, how would acetone effect it?

 

[DutchmanDick]

Started cleaning the gun up a few days ago. Aside from a broken rear barrel-band spring (replacements available from The Rifle Shoppe) and a badly damaged ramrod (IMA is sending a replacement original in better shape for $20), the gun is in BEAUTIFUL shape under all the grunge. Scotchbrite pads and denatured alcohol seem to work best for cutting the crud. I will rub some boiled linseed oil into the stock once it's all cleaned (and try to spot-steam out some of the dents before I do that). I won't try to refinish any of the metal parts, or do any more aggressive cleaning than getting the rust and dried grease off (I DID have to sandblast the lock and tang screws, as the threads and slots were almost totally clogged). There was no deep pitting on the barrel under the wood, just a few small, shallow pits. The bore at the muzzle looks pretty decent, and if the rest of the bore is in as good a condition, I think it will be shootable. Even with the cost of replacement parts, plus having a gunsmith pull the breechplug and clean the bore before re-installing the plug, I'll have less into the gun than an Italian replica, and have an original to boot!

 

[Z71]

My muskets ramrod was crooked as a rattlesnake! No wonder the gun has muzzle wear if it was getting loaded and cleaned with that crooked hunk of iron!

The ramrod must be soft iron because it's as easy to bend. I hammered and hand bent mine back to decently straight without too much effort.

 

[DutchmanDick]

The ramrod on mine was beyond salvage. In fact, it looks like it had either been hammered on, or possibly even fired out of a gun against a hard object! The threaded end was badly peened, and the other end is battered beyond usefulness. There is also a crack right through into the cleaning patch slot, and the head is actually ginked. Better off with another rod rather than trying to salvage this one, especially since it wasn't the original rod for the gun anyway (the Nepalese numbers, once translated, don't match betweeen the gun and the rod). The guy at IMA said he'd pick out a decent rod for me.

 

[RaiderANV]

Dutchman,,,,original & repro parts are easy to get at Lodgewood in Whitewater Wisconsin. Their number is 262-473-5444. And you get your parts sent out fast rather then wait months on the other guy. Any questions you have about yer new toy they can answer as well

 

[DutchmanDick]

Thanks! I got the "new" vintage rod via Brown Santa (UPS) yesterday. Other than the threads needing to be cleaned up by running a die over them, it isn't in too bad of a shape (and MUCH better than the one that came with the gun!)

The gun is cleaning up nicely, BTW. If I had a way to post pics, I would, but my camera is on the fritz and needs to be repaired or replaced. All of the screws that thread into metal have come out pretty easily, once the gunk is cleared from the slots. The wood screws are trash, but a check at the local hardware store turned up some slotted screws with the same head-size (have to burn the zinc off in a well-ventilated area, though, and hit them with some cold blue to improve their appearance). No original finish left on the barrel, but OTOH little pitting under the wood-line and what is there is fairly light. I have a breechplug wrench on order from Dixie Gunworks ( I got the one for tapered breechplugs, since that's what my musket has), so once I get that I can pull the plug and check out the bore. I also ordered a Parker-Hale style "sergeant's tool" from Track of the Wolf that has a screwdriver, oil bottle, worm, mainspring clamp, nipple wrench, and ball puller, as well as replacement nipples for both #11 and musket caps (#11 caps are MUCH easier to find in my area, plus I already have a sizeable stash). Next step: putting some BLO on the stock!

 

[arcticap]

Your thoughtful description of the rifle and how things are progressing is interesting to read about, and it's nice to hear that you've received what sounds like a very decent rifle.
I have to admit that I'm a little worried about the breech plug being pulled on such an old rifle. Hopefully it's not as much like having a risky major surgery as I imagine it to be and that all will go well with the procedure.