New #1 and surprise caliber/load

[vaalpens]

When it comes to accuracy I normally expect my 357sig to perform the best since I shoot mostly jacketed bullets, then my 9mm since I shoot jacketed and plated, and last would be the 40s&w where I have been loading and shooting just plated bullets. In 40s&w I have never seen that very tight accuracy as I have seen in 357sig, but accuracy has been good enough for defensive purposes.

On Friday I decided to do some load testing, but also decided to do some drills with my 40s&w to practice drawing with accurate and fast follow up shots. Since I had the chrono out and I had my pistol scope mount with me, I decided to chrono the bulk load I was using and also do an accuracy test at 15yards while everything was set up.

The chrono data was where I expected it to be, but the accuracy result was definitely not what I expected with this load. This load is now my most accurate load at 15yards I have tested. I know there are a lot of variables, but this BE-86 load with plated bullets, my cheapest primers and powder dispensed with a Lee Auto Drum, surprised me. Following are the results:

40SW, SIG P229, 3.9"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 165gr, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.8gr, GINEXSP
Average: 874
ES: 33
SD: 13.8
Force: 280
PF: 144
Velocities: 894, 861, 861, 876, 879
Grouping @ 15yards: .64"

 

[Hokie_PhD]

BE86 seems to be a powder that is gaining a lot of love. So I'm not surprised you got good results.
Congrats!

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

5.8gr of BE86 and 874fps? Those both sound like you are off the bottom end of recommended load data. How was the gun cycling?

 

[LiveLife]

5.8 gr of BE86 and 874fps? Those both sound like you are off the bottom end of recommended load data.

40SW ... COL: 1.125" ... Xtreme, 165gr, RNFPHPCB

Nice shooting but I agree with CCD. For heavier 180 gr Berry's FP/RS (Round Shoulder), RMR RNFP and X-Treme RNFP, I use 6.1 gr of BE-86.

And have you considered using longer OAL? With 180 gr TCFP nose profile bullets, accuracy improved with 1.137"-1.142" OAL. With 180 gr RNFP nose profile, longer 1.155" OAL improved accuracy.

9mm 115/124 gr FMJ/RN bullets with shorter base seem to benefit from shorter OAL/COL to produce greater neck tension which has shown to overshadow benefit of less gas leakage from longer OAL - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-oal-col-long-vs-short.819257/

But 40S&W 165/180 gr TCFP/RNFP bullets with longer base (from flat point bullet nose which increases bullet base length) seem to produce sufficient neck tension even at longer OAL to benefit from less gas leakage. This theory was tested during my 40S&W Herco load development where longer than SAAMI max OAL produced smaller shot groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9362819

As you can see from below picture of MBC 180 gr TCFP shot groups, using longer OALs allowed by my barrel produced smaller groups size

With RMR 180 gr RNFP, even longer OAL of 1.155" worked in my barrels

And using longer working OAL with RMR 180 gr RNFP, produced these groups at 15/25 yards

1.5" 25 yard groups with stock Glock 22 and "plated" bullets? Hard to believe. At the range, person in the next lane said if he didn't see it with his own eyes, he would not have believe it. So I had Dudedog meet me at the range to verify accuracy of longer than SAAMI max plated load and got this group - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9646469

 

[vaalpens]

BE86 seems to be a powder that is gaining a lot of love. So I'm not surprised you got good results.
Congrats!

Thanks.

 

[vaalpens]

5.8gr of BE86 and 874fps? Those both sound like you are off the bottom end of recommended load data. How was the gun cycling?

I had no problem with the cycling of the gun. I tested this bullet at a COL of 1.125" from 5.8gr to 6.3gr with 5.8gr showing the best grouping. The second best grouping was actually 6.3gr, but I went with 5.8gr since they were so close and 5.8gr puts less stress on the gun and 5.8gr had the better ES/SD numbers..

 

[vaalpens]

Nice shooting but I agree with CCD. For heavier 180 gr Berry's FP/RS (Round Shoulder), RMR RNFP and X-Treme RNFP, I use 6.1 gr of BE-86.

And have you considered using longer OAL? With 180 gr TCFP nose profile bullets, accuracy improved with 1.137"-1.142" OAL. With 180 gr RNFP nose profile, longer 1.155" OAL improved accuracy.

9mm 115/124 gr FMJ/RN bullets with shorter base seem to benefit from shorter OAL/COL to produce greater neck tension which has shown to overshadow benefit of less gas leakage from longer OAL - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-oal-col-long-vs-short.819257/

But 40S&W 165/180 gr TCFP/RNFP bullets with longer base (from flat point bullet nose which increases bullet base length) seem to produce sufficient neck tension even at longer OAL to benefit from less gas leakage. This theory was tested during my 40S&W Herco load development where longer than SAAMI max OAL produced smaller shot groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9362819

As you can see from below picture of MBC 180 gr TCFP shot groups, using longer OALs allowed by my barrel produced smaller groups size

With RMR 180 gr RNFP, even longer OAL of 1.155" worked in my barrels

And using longer working OAL with RMR 180 gr RNFP, produced these groups at 15/25 yards

1.5" 25 yard groups with stock Glock 22 and "plated" bullets? Hard to believe. At the range, person in the next lane said if he didn't see it with his own eyes, he would not have believe it. So I had Dudedog meet me at the range to verify accuracy of longer than SAAMI max plated load and got this group - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9646469

bds, Thanks for the reply. I originally loaded most of my 40s&w loads using a COL of 1.142", but then with some powders I felt I needed more pressure to get better SD/ES numbers without adding more powder. I switched over to a 1.125" COL without any loss of accuracy, but it seems I had better SD/ES numbers. Since it did not impact my accuracy, I just stayed with the 1.125" COL and has been happy with it.

Looking at my previous results it does seem that I actually had two loads with good accuracy. At the lower end of 5.8gr, and also at 6.3gr. I should probably test 6.3gr again and see how it compares with the 5.8gr load.

Now that I am testing my loads using a scope, I am actually planning on revisiting all my load again to see which ones ar reallu accurate, and which ones were maybe just luck at the time. The next phase will be to stretch them out to 25yards to get a true picture of the accuracy.

 

[LiveLife]

I originally loaded most of my 40s&w loads using a COL of 1.142"

Accuracy with plated bullets, especially with rounded base, is heavily depended on gas leakage.

Like 1KPerDay, I had difficulty optimizing accuracy with Berry's 180 gr FP/RS bullets until I started using longer OAL. 1.142" worked for my barrels with TCFP profile bullets but found RNFP bullets needed longer OAL (like 1.155" for RMR RNFP) to optimize accuracy.

I think lighter powder charges benefit from shorter OAL but if you are looking to optimize accuracy, you should consider testing effects of decrease in gas leakage from longer OALs.

For 165 gr RNFP, Alliant lists 7.5 gr as max charge for FMC bullet loaded to shorter 1.120". Even if we were to use 1.120" for 165 gr RNFP, 10% reduction start charge should be 6.7 gr and not 5.8 or 6.3 gr - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...wderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=38&cartridge=29

To continue with your powder work up, I would use the longest working OAL (Start from 1.155" and work down) and next test rounds loaded with 6.3, 6.5, 6.7 and 6.9 gr and see what the accuracy trend is.

 

[vaalpens]

bds, Thanks again for the information and suggestions. The low charge is one of the reasons the title of this thread included "surprise". My BE-86 experience so far indicate that it does not perform well at lower charges, so it was surprising to me that the lower charge on my initial workup had the better grouping and better SD/ES numbers. I actually started my loads using the Alliant 165gr JHP load data with a max of 6.5gr. With a new powder and a high pressure round like 40s&w I just started with conservative numbers. I have been searching for a while for an accurate lower velocity 40s&w load I could use for practice and trigger time, and this one so far performs the best for me. As a defensive training round, I have a few worked up using different powders, but I have not went in that direction with BE-86 yet.

 

[LiveLife]

Many powders produce more than one accuracy node. With certain powders, especially faster burn rate powders, powder burn is efficient enough at start charge (or even slightly below start charge) to produce lighter accurate target loads (reason why Bullseye downloads well below start charge).

For this reason, when I conduct powder work up with faster burn rate powders, I will often drop slightly below start charge to identify any lighter target load before working up to published max charge. Hodgdon lists 4.4-5.1 gr as start/max charges for 180 gr Berry's FP bullet at 1.125" OAL/COL with W231/HP-38 but 3.9-4.1 gr with 1.125"-1.135" OAL will cycle the slides of my Glocks and produce accurate enough 9mm like recoil practice loads good for introducing new shooters to 40S&W. 4.2-4.3 gr will produce more accurate target loads yet light recoil 40S&W target loads and we are still below published start charge.

As you have already found out, I think what you are experiencing with BE-86 is flexibility of the powder like W231/HP-38 (one of many reasons why it is so popular and I also look forward to continuing my test with Alliant Sport Pistol at similar burn rate as W231/HP-38). In this Guns & Ammo article, writer tested below published start charges with Bullseye, Titegroup, W231/HP-38 and Power Pistol to successfully produce USPSA minor power factor loads (I did the same to produce minor PF load for my Glock 22 with 155/165/180 gr bullets and W231/HP-38) - http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_40lite_091806/

As to using JHP load data for FMJ/FMC (Full Metal Case), I usually find JHP max charges are much lower than FMJ/FMC max charges. This is Alliant's current load data for BE-86 - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...wderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=38&cartridge=29

- 165 gr JHP BE-86 OAL 1.120" Max 6.5 gr 1,123 fps
- 165 gr FMC BE-86 OAL 1.120" Max 7.5 gr 1,167 fps

As you can see, 6.5 gr max for JHP bullet is essentially the start charge for 7.5 gr max for FMC bullet. Since your powder work up is at 6.3 gr, I think working up towards 7.5 gr max charge for FMC may identify more accurate loads. Since you are using X-Treme regular plated bullet with .006"-.008" copper plating thickness and 1200 fps rating, you may not need to worry about plating failure but my experience with regular plated bullets is that they tend to lose accuracy above mid-range jacketed load data - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-3#post-10470195

As I suggested in post #4, once you are above start charge for 180 gr FMC bullet of 6.3 gr, I think you will be surprised again to use longer than SAAMI max length of 1.135" OAL for X-Treme RNFP bullet to produce even more accurate loads.

 

[vaalpens]

Since there has been some discussion regarding a good starting load for 40s&w, I decided to test another load for accuracy at my next range trip. This time I used a CFE Pistol load with an Avg of 995fps, with a longer COL of 1.142". The accuracy test was not as good as the BE-86 load, but it could have been better if it was not for the flyer. I am not that good to tell if the flyer was due to me or the load, but I am happy with the results:


40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: WIN
COL: 1.142"
Xtreme, 165gr, RNFPHPCB, CFEpistol, 6.9gr, CCI500
Average: 995
ES: 57
SD: 20.7
Force: 363
PF: 164
Velocities: 972, 1029, 992, 994, 991

 

[LiveLife]

Looking good.

As to flyers, jmorris and Bart B. cured me of that issue by suggesting I shoot 10 shot groups instead of 5.

And guess what? My "flyers" went away and now I have bigger groups.

Thanks jmorris and Bart B. I am forever in your debt.

And if I get flyers with 10 shot groups? I will be shooting 15-20 shot groups then.

 

[vaalpens]

Looking good.

As to flyers, jmorris and Bart B. cured me of that issue by suggesting I shoot 10 shot groups instead of 5.

And guess what? My "flyers" went away and now I have bigger groups.

Thanks jmorris and Barb B. I am forever in your debt.

And if I get flyers with 10 shot groups? I will be shooting 15-20 shot groups then.

Thanks bds!

It feels like cheating shooting with a scope at 15 yards, but eyes just did not allow me to evaluate my loads anymore, and it turned more into how good I was shooting/focusing that day. Without a scope it was actually easier since I could not see holes, so no pressure. With the scope it put more pressure on me since I can see when I have a good grouping going.

Once I get completely comfortable with the scope and trusting it, then I'll probably take the next step and test my loads at 25 yards.