New .50 BMG in California

[Zoogster]

I was wondering if a .50 BMG powerhead is legal in California.

I looked at the legislation which prohibits .50 BMG rifles in California and it all refers to 'rifle'.
'Rifle' is defined by law and is clearly separate from other types of firearms. This would appear to make a .50 BMG handgun, or other item such as a powerhead legal as they are not 'rifles'.


Is this correct and would it be ok to import, possess, own, and swim with such a device in California waters?
(California law does not allow the take of fish with powerheads, but several people keep them for shark protection.)



I was curious after this story of a guy hitting a great white trapped in a tuna pen 9 times with a 12 gauge powerhead, with at least the first shot being in the head, and it still being alive. This was a shark trapped in a pen and so with greatly reduced mobility, and the 12 gauge still was inadequate.
It would appear the 12 gauge powerhead is not entirely suitable for the job.
Now these animals are protected in California, but self-defense is still legal.
Could someone carry a .50 BMG powerhead while diving for example off of the Farrallones?

 

[M-Cameron]

in not sure which would be worse....

being eaten by a shark.....or having to shoot a .50bmg powerhead.


you might as well duct tape a hand grenade to a broom handle.

 

[Zoogster]

If it was a handgun it would meet the single shot exemption to the handgun list TexasRifleman.
So handgun or not it would not need to be on the California approved list.


M-Cameron said:

you might as well duct tape a hand grenade to a broom handle.

One of the more effective powerhead designs basically does this.
It was the old SeaWay Bangstick. It technically was not designed to be a grenade, but in practical application the brass cartridge used always ruptured into metal splinters upon firing.
It was known as one of the most effective of all powerheads, and used proprietary rounds that were essentially a shortened .38 special on an .30 rifle cartridge. In between the two they were filled with a high quantity of powder.
It fired the rifle cartridge as the 'projectile' officially. In reality when the rifle cartridge is shoved into the target it exploded the essentially brass grenade on what was hit, with the 'barrel' of the bangstick directing the explosive force of the explosion into the target, often times blowing it in half.
Only brass slivers of the .30 rifle brass are typically recovered in the target, no solid remains of the 'projectile'.
This sudden release of explosive force great enough to rupture the rifle cartridge before it can leave as a projectile, with most of the cartridge even supported as you can see in the image, certainly achieved sending more explosive pressure into the target than a typical bangstick merely burning the powder. It builds a high enough PSI to blow up the brass before allowing pressure to escape.


So directional grenade on a stick is what you are going for.
Not officially of course, as that would be a 'destructive device' and require an NFA tax stamp.


Here is a picture of the seaway, with the proprietary cartridges consisting of two pieces of brass wedged together.

 

[TexasRifleman]

If it was a handgun it would meet the single shot exemption to the handgun list TexasRifleman.

Yeah that's why I pulled the post after I looked at it, it wouldn't need to be on the list.

Only question would seem to be, is it a handgun or something else? Interesting puzzle you have here

 

[Carl N. Brown]

What is the legal classification of powerheads? (I had some text on it years ago, can't find it, and gun laws change so frequently anyway).

Added: I took a look at that photo of the shark (download was slow today). I think the powerheads used today are designed for sharks of reasonable size, and not for the star of SyFy Channel MegaShark Returns.

 

[average_shooter]

My understanding was that CA specifically describes the 50 BMG cartridge itself as being illegal, not just "50 cal. rifles" in general. Hence why some manufacturers designed proprietary rounds to circumvent the law. I believe I read once a long time ago the law which actually provided measurements / specifications detailing the 50 BMG cartridge to be outlawed.

 

[Zoogster]

average_shooter said:

My understanding was that CA specifically describes the 50 BMG cartridge itself as being illegal, not just "50 cal. rifles" in general. Hence why some manufacturers designed proprietary rounds to circumvent the law.

The law prohibits .50 BMG rifles, but then goes into detail in describing exactly what the dimensions of the round of those prohibited rifles is.
Hence manufacturers make proprietary rounds that are nearly the same thing but of different dimensions so they can sell .50 BMG type rifles of similar payload, at similar velocities, operating at similar pressures, while technically being something not prohibited.
However they do that to sell 'rifles'. 'Rifle' being the prohibited item in .50 BMG.

 

[Librarian]

My understanding was that CA specifically describes the 50 BMG cartridge itself as being illegal, not just "50 cal. rifles" in general.

No, it's the rifles. There are registered .50 BMG rifles and other weapons in the state, and it's legal to buy .50 BMG ammo for them.

 

[jerkface11]

If a powerhead counts as a pistol then you'd need an AOW stamp for the 12ga ones and for a .50bmg for that matter. Do they require a stamp?

 

[Zoogster]

They are not NFA firearms as far as the feds are concerned.
The feds have stated if they are 'permanently' affixed to a shaft of a length greater than 18".
Many are sold spot welded to an ackward 18" rod on the side that is intended to be cut off once they are attached to a shaft.

What federal law and California law consider them to be can be very different things however.



It is hard to get a straight answer in California as to what they are considered under California law. Department of Fish and Game seems to think they are perfectly fine to possess for protection while diving. CA DOJ (Department of Justice) doesn't give a clear opinion.
What they are at the California level is hard to pin down.

If they are firearms then PC 12031 could apply, making loaded in public an issue. However as far as I know many county jurisdictions end at the water.
I would appreciate if someone like Librarian could help to clarify that. If you are 100 yards out in the water are you subject to the laws of the county or just the state? Since PC12031 is triggered by county ordinances that would be of some importance if a bangstick was considered a firearm.
The exact borders of jurisdiction would become of utmost importance.

If they are firearms and the beach is 'public' and the water is beyond that jurisdiction it would also imply they would need to be loaded after entering the water and unloaded before leaving the water on a dive from the coast or an island. Making it a legal requirement to fumble around with your ammo in the water.
Since unloaded 'open carry' was just banned in California it could also require that they now be cased in a locked container before leaving the ocean and returning to the beach, as even unloaded they would be open carried.
Stuffed into a dive bag or otherwise put out of sight if they were considered handguns they would be illegally concealed per PC 12025 (or perhaps they meet a fishing exemption for someone engaged in fishing with a valid fishing license even though they cannot be used to take fish?)

It would also be possible to make one using only blanks, as most of the destructive force comes from the gases and the projectile is nearly immaterial.
The near incompressibility of water results in contact shots being far more destructive under water than they would be above water. The water acts as an incompressible barrier directing more of the force into the target, especially at depth where there is more pressure. While above water the air is readily compressible and the atmosphere acts as the path of least resistance so the explosive gases leave the target in the shortest route possible.
This means the same caliber is far deadlier under water with contact shots than above water.
(Now consider that 9 contact shots of 12 gauge was not enough for that shark.)

 

[Owen Sparks]

No mater what the laws of California are the laws of physics would make such a thing totaly impractical. The recoil of the .50 BMG round is so stout that very heavy single shot rifles like the Barret have to have muzzle breaks to make them tolerable. A light weight bang stick would likely be driven back through your body like a harpoon.

 

[Zoogster]

No they sell them, and people have fired them underwater. Yes they do need to be used carefully to avoid impaling yourself.
They would not be a pleasure to use, certainly without hearing protection.
But the shark may be a less enjoyable option.

 

[Quiet]

CA Penal Code 12001
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

 

[Zoogster]

So it could fall under PC 12031.

Where does jurisdiction end for a county? How far into the water?


Also can it be just a 'firearm' at the California level without being a handgun (making PC12025 apply) or a rifle or shotgun and still be legal?

They are generally also not rifled, both the commercial and the homemade varieties have no rifling. The 'barrel' or chamber is also typically close to the length of the cartridge or slightly more. Considering that many use shotgun shells does this mean they are illegal short barreled shotguns (like the taurus judge) in California because they have a barrel under 18"?
Perhaps no shotgun powerheads are legal in California?

The feds do no consider the powerheads AOWs so you cannot get AOW paperwork that would then exempt them at the state level either.


So what are they?
Handguns?

Wouldn't that make them 'smoothbore' pistols as well? I cannot recall if California restricts those, I know the feds do, but since the feds don't consider powerheads to be firearms it's not a problem at the federal level. How about at the California level? Are smoothbore handguns which are not federally restricted still restricted?

Rifles?
Obviously if it was a rifle .50 BMG would then be banned, but California defines a rifle as having a barrel longer than powerheads have.
They are not shoulder fired and do not have barrels over 16" long.


What are they according to California? 'Firearms'? Handguns?

 

[Colonel]

In reality when the rifle cartridge is shoved into the target it exploded the essentially brass grenade on what was hit, with the 'barrel' of the bangstick directing the explosive force of the explosion into the target, often times blowing it in half.

When you're underwater, I bet that really makes your ears ring!

I can't imagine firing something like .50 BMG that produces breech pressures on the order of 45ksi... Charlie don't surf and water don't compress.

 

[mortablunt]

I just thought of a brilliant idea: make a weapon in 50 BMG, but don't put a stock on it and avoid putting on anything which explicitly is supposed to get your second hand on it. You would have a 50 BMG "handgun" which could still be used as a rifle.

 

[Zoogster]

mortablunt said:

I just thought of a brilliant idea: make a weapon in 50 BMG, but don't put a stock on it and avoid putting on anything which explicitly is supposed to get your second hand on it. You would have a 50 BMG "handgun" which could still be used as a rifle.

Most of the market does not want what the feds consider a handgun chambered in .50 BMG because it would then ban a large number of rounds as 'armor piercing' handgun rounds.
Much like the first AK pistols in 7.62x39 resulted in most inexpensive iron core surplus ammo being banned for import as 'armor piercing' handgun ammo.
A .50 BMG handgun could readily result in a large percentage of mass produced .50 cal rounds being banned for civilians.
All to create what is certainly an impractical firearm. The .50BMG round also requires a decent barrel length to to achieve high power on land. Handgun rounds using fast burning handgun powder that reaches the desired PSI quickly can actually be more powerful in short barrels. A .500 S&W can as a result be more powerful in a really short barrel than even the .50 BMG which has big slow burning powder granules. Since both operate at similar pressures the one that reaches and is operating at that pressure longer before the bullet leaves the barrel is more powerful as more energy is applied to the bullet. In short barrels that is the handgun round using handgun powder.




I imagine that handgun would be the end of civilian possession of the Raufoss round, probably the best factory produced small arms round civilians can have at this point. The commercial production of a handgun in that chamber turns that round into a handgun round according to the ATF, which then makes it subject to the law against armor piercing handgun rounds, and bullets containing various metals which are perfectly legal if its only a rifle round but a felony if its a handgun round.



However a powerhead is not a handgun at the federal level, and this discussion has to do with what it is under California law, which could be a handgun.

You can have a firearm be a handgun at a state level and not at the federal level. Michigan for example considers any firearm under 30" to be a handgun if I recall correctly.

 

[mboylan]

I just thought of a brilliant idea: make a weapon in 50 BMG, but don't put a stock on it and avoid putting on anything which explicitly is supposed to get your second hand on it. You would have a 50 BMG "handgun" which could still be used as a rifle.

That handgun would have to have a great muzzle brake and weigh over 25 pounds. The 50 BMG is just this side of small artillery.

 

[jerkface11]

.50 BMG is over .50 so to be a handgun it would need a stamp.

 

[Quiet]

In regards to being a "handgun" in CA...
Under CA laws [PC 12001(a)], a "handgun" is a firearm with a barrel length of less than 16".


In regards to using a powerhead/bangstick in CA...
Maybe this will help...
LA Times CA Fish & Game Q&A section.