As I understand it, placing the ram under the sizing die is meant to direct upward pressure under the operation requiring the most force...the most efficient application of the force available
New Auto Breech Lock Pro
- Thread starter Rule3
- Start date
- Status
LiveLife
Member
As far as I can tell from the schematics (see below), while the ram on Pro 4000 is under Station 1 (2 O'clock position in the schematics with long ramp for case feeder), since shellplate needs to rotate, I do not believe the ram will be in direct contact with the bottom of shell plate. (If somehow top of ram came in contact with bottom of shellplate so shellplate would function as a shellholder, that would be awesome).
The shell plate looks to be mounted and rotate on a center bearing. The question is how will this new set up affect OAL variance? And for that, we would need to actually load some rounds with and without pre-resized brass to see if there is any difference.
Last edited:
Galling causing more resistance causing more flex somewhere? Stretch? Flex? Slop? You are stuck on what is causing more pressure on the assembly, which is causing more flex somewhere resulting in a bigger OAL spread.
The only logical assumption.
Blue68f100
Member
Another way to look at it is like a tidier toddler. aka see-saw. (may be showing my age here). With the ram being the center of the fulcrum. On one end you have 100 lbs force need to size the brass, on the other it only takes 50# to seat a bullet. So the end with the greater load will deflect more. Hornady uses a 2" ram in the LNL to add rigidity. Trying to minimize this. I'm one that run full AP operations when it comes to loading pistol ammo. I've modified the seating stem on my SWC ammo to only contact the shoulder and not the nose. By only measuring from this point there is very minimal 0.002" (max) shift in OAL. As we know if you measure from the nose to base it's a lot larger but that is the variation in the bullet itself. Need to measure the ogive to base to have a accurate measurement.
The shell plates run above the base and has no impact on deflection, except when used to seat a primer. But then it's the only option going on that requires a forward push of the handle to run the ram down. (LNL-AP)
The shell plates run above the base and has no impact on deflection, except when used to seat a primer. But then it's the only option going on that requires a forward push of the handle to run the ram down. (LNL-AP)
LiveLife
Member
But most of us use the bullet seating stem that comes with the seating die.
Of course, if I used a custom seating stem made for the bullet nose I am using, I will have less OAL variance. But I have more than 20 different bullets just for 9mm and not practical to have custom seating stems made for all of them.
I am looking at practical options to reduce OAL variance even when using different nose profile bullets.
How does seating the primer affect OAL variance?
Last edited:
santacruzdave
Member
I think for the price I'll get one and set it up for 9mm. I checked my reloading records and I load 9mm way more than anything else. Rifle on the Co-Ax, revolver and 45 acp on the classic turret and 9mm on the Auto Breech Lock Pro. Hmmmm... might be a plan.
Yep.
The case sits on the subplate which is screwed very tightly to the hollow ram. It pushes the brass up into the die. Any stretch/flex happens with that connection, or the frame of the press. The shell plate just floats around the case head. As noted by Blue68f100, the shell plate does come into play when priming as it holds the case against the piece that pushes the primer in the primer pocket.
I drew a representation of how the LNL drive shaft, subplate, hub, and shell plate interact. The hub and shell plate float for the die operations. The shell plated does have to pull the cases out of the dies, but it plays no part in pushing the cases into the dies other than lining the case up with the die.
Attachments
LiveLife
Member
If anyone is interested, I just did a myth busting thread on OAL variance decrease when using pre-resized brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-affect-on-oal-variance.833604/#post-10778746
1KPerDay
Member
I would like to see a myth busters thread on whether .003" inch variance in OAL actually affects accuracy to any measurable degree
I would suppose that could, or would depend upon the case volume and powder used. Wouldn't percentage be a more accurate gage?
I doubt any of us shoot well enough to prove it, if it exists.
LiveLife
Member
1KPerDay, take a step back and look at the "totality" of reloading variables.
- In the myth busting thread, it's less critical to note how much OAL varied rather they varied - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-affect-on-oal-variance.833604/#post-10778746
- And the tests were conducted using same headstamp brass. With mixed range brass, I get about .005" OAL variance.
- And we recently did neck tension and bullet setback myth busting thread where we measured different amount of bullet setback depending on the headstamp when chambered from the magazine - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550
So while .004"+ OAL variance may not translate to significant change on group size, add to this bullet setback variance and powder charge variance (We all know even better metering powders vary by .1 gr which is going to be my next myth busting thread), now you have STACKING of reloading variables that could be measurable on target.
And if you are using a powder measure that drifts, you have another reloading variable that could stack.
When I shot USPSA matches, we did many comparison tests. One of the tests was shooting our different match loads (different bullets, powders/charges, primers, OAL, crimp, etc.) in the same pistol to see if we could see difference on target. When my match loads got comparable/smaller groups than other match loads, they got curious.
They were surprised to find out I was loading my match loads on Pro 1000 with pre-resized brass. Back than I was using Montana Gold FMJ/JHP bullets and Winchester primers along with WST/Titegroup/W231/Universal/WSF powders and many other shooters used the same components.
So we went to different shooters' houses and examined their equipment and reloading practice with calipers and scales in hand. What we found out was some of the powder measures drifted as much as by a few thousandths during a reloading session. Let's say you start out with 4.0 gr charge but the powder measure drift ends with 4.2 gr. If you factor in the normal powder measure drop variance, you could be reaching into your ammo bag and grab two different rounds with almost 3.9 gr charge and 4.3 gr charge loaded in the same magazine. This variance WILL show on target.
What they found with me was since I was using fixed volumetric hole Pro Auto Disk, my powder charge drops could not drift even after 1000+ round reloading session and all the rounds you grab from the ammo bag would have the normal powder charge variance of .1 gr. Of course while I used mixed range brass, I did use pre-resized brass which, as shown in recent myth busting thread, produced OAL variance of .001".
Last edited:
LiveLife
Member
I used to do the same and weigh my drops but at longer intervals.
What I found is that even after 500-1000 round reloading session, Pro Auto Disk drops did not drift and maintained normal .1 gr variance.
I will be doing the powder charge drop variance myth busting thread next so stay tuned.
What I found is that even after 500-1000 round reloading session, Pro Auto Disk drops did not drift and maintained normal .1 gr variance.
I will be doing the powder charge drop variance myth busting thread next so stay tuned.
RealGun
Member
LiveLife
Member
RealGun,
So I ran the test for you with and without pre-resized brass and OAL variance went from around .005" for mixed brass to .003" for same headstamp and .001" for pre-resized brass using BLAZER/R-P/WIN cases - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-resized-brass-affect-on-oal-variance.833604/
RealGun
Member
What cartridge? To make all this relevant we'll be waiting for the tests on this new press. I do know that the variances cited mean little to me personally and that I will continue to do all operations on the press unless for my rifles (or 44-40). One exception is conditioning new brass, on which I have some galling issues during expanding and have chosen not to size new Starline brass but to wash it in wash 'n wax car wash. I then run it through two progressive sizes of expander, one being the PTX and the other the slightly larger cowboy die (loading lead bullets).
Last edited:
LiveLife
Member
As indicated on the thread, 9mm
OK, I'll wade into this thread drift to add something not mentioned in the OAL discussion.
The bullet seater pushes/contacts the bullet somewhere along the ogive and we measure OAL at the bullet tip.
So I'm thinking any variation of the ogive would directly affect the OAL (measured at the tip).
If I were testing to find any cause of OAL variation (I'm not) I would use a totally flat point bullet of some kind and flat bullet seater to seat the bullet, to eliminate any ogive variation from skewing the results.
edit: for clarity
The bullet seater pushes/contacts the bullet somewhere along the ogive and we measure OAL at the bullet tip.
So I'm thinking any variation of the ogive would directly affect the OAL (measured at the tip).
If I were testing to find any cause of OAL variation (I'm not) I would use a totally flat point bullet of some kind and flat bullet seater to seat the bullet, to eliminate any ogive variation from skewing the results.
edit: for clarity
Last edited:
LiveLife
Member
I do have RMR 124 gr FMJ FP bullets but my bullet seating die stem is for RN bullets.
Still, I could consider repeating the test with FP bullets.
Still, I could consider repeating the test with FP bullets.
This would fit better in this threadOK, I'll wade into this thread drift to add something not mentioned in the OAL discussion.
The bullet seater pushes/contacts the bullet somewhere along the ogive and we measure OAL at the bullet tip.
So I'm thinking any variation of the ogive would directly affect the OAL (measured at the tip).
If I were testing to find any cause of OAL variation (I'm not) I would use a totally flat point bullet of some kind to both seat the bullet and measure OAL, to eliminate any ogive variation from skewing the results.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-resized-brass-affect-on-oal-variance.833604/
LiveLife
Member
9mmepiphany, if I repeat the test with FP bullets, I will post on the other thread.
thomas15
Member
Someone should suggest to CNN that they run an on-screen count down clock. 30 days to the release of the Pro 4000! Bigger than the shot heard round the world! Will the consumer reloading industry ever be the same?
Details at the top of the hour when our industry experts weigh in on this game changer and our exclusive man on the street interviews!.
Details at the top of the hour when our industry experts weigh in on this game changer and our exclusive man on the street interviews!.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
