New Experimental Army Rifle Uses "Telescoped" Ammunition

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Aim1

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Is it basically a sabot round?







https://www.yahoo.com/news/experimental-army-rifle-uses-telescoped-192934824.html



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New Experimental Army Rifle Uses "Telescoped" Ammunition

Kyle Mizokami September 29, 2016

Defense contractor Textron just unveiled a new rifle at the Modern Day Marine conference. Designed to use so-called "telescoped" ammunition, the new rifle promises a harder-hitting, lighter bullet for America's ground troops to fire. Whether the U.S. military is ready to embrace all the change a new rifle and ammunition would bring remains to be seen.

Traditional bullet cartridges have a bullet seated roughly halfway inside a brass shell casing, with gunpowder inside the casing. By contrast, the new rifle uses a 6.5-millimeter polymer-cased telescoped bullet. Telescoped rounds feature a bullet completely encased in a polymer shell, like a shotgun, with gunpowder surrounding the bullet in the shell.

The result is a cartridge that doesn't use brass, a considerable savings in weight. According the Kit Up! blog, telescoped ammunition is about 40 percent lighter than traditional ammunition. Textron could have channeled this weight savings into making lighter ammunition, but instead it chose to make new ammunition that packs a bigger punch. The rifle-and 20 rounds of ammunition-weighs a total of 9.7 pounds. By contrast, the standard M4A1 (pictured above) and 30 rounds of ammunition weigh 8.74 pounds. Textron claims the new 6.5-millimeter round has 300 percent more energy than the standard U.S. Army bullet, the M855A1. That translates into greater knockdown power against human targets, more armor penetration, and longer range. A heavier bullet and more energy would solve a persistent complaint about the U.S. Army's M4A1 carbine-that the smaller 5.56-millimeter bullet often requires multiple hits to incapacitate a target and it lacks the range to make accurate long-range shots. The latter has been a particular complaint in Afghanistan, where long-range engagements are common.
 
Cheaper, lighter and bigger sounds like a good thing to me. I'd like something that gave more of an indication a bullet is loaded backwards than that notch, but it might be built into the magazine.
 
The trick behind these is essentially a highly compressed charge, that would normally be dangerous to shoot. The primer & initial powder blast actually drives the bullet forward into the lands, before the main bulk of the powder conflagrates & sends it downrange. Requires pretty fancy powder/primer chemistry to make this safe & predictable, but basically allows you to deploy your bullets like a switchblade to save a good deal of space. Eliminates the need for a neck to hold the bullet, so that space is filled in with more powder to complete the cylindrical shape. Though not really intrinsic to the telescoping ammo concept, the case has been made from polymer to save a lot of weight in addition to volume. The only real downside to the telescoped bullet concept, is that because the bullet has to jump so far to the lands, I doubt the accuracy will ever be what we would expect from a modern precision rifle (i.e. 1 MOA or better)

The result are 223-equivalent rounds that could probably fit in a PS90 magazine single-stacked if you really wanted to, and 308-equivalent rounds that can fit inside a AR15 size magwell (the LSAT carbine/LMG concepts are not based on existing designs, though). I personally think the 6.5 LSATs are particularly cool, since they give 308-ish performance & range from the little PDW sized round, and approximate 6.5 Creedmore from the 5.56-size round.

To be honest, I'm surprised congress hasn't tried to pass laws banning this new tech, yet. It's the closest thing to a significant leap in rifle technology since locked-breech automatic fire, so you think they'd want it to be similarly off-limits to us 'for our own safety.'

TCB
 
Look how wide the cartridge is.

It seems to me like they're trading cartridge length for cartridge width.

Will magazine capacities really be improved with this logic? :scrutiny:
 
Well... shotgun shells feed, but I still think that flat face would be trouble in a fully-automatic military weapon.
 
Look how wide the cartridge is.

It seems to me like they're trading cartridge length for cartridge width.

Will magazine capacities really be improved with this logic? :scrutiny:

Magazine capacity is less as the round is larger in diameter. That is the tradeoff for the 40% reduction in weight.
 
Look how wide the cartridge is.

It seems to me like they're trading cartridge length for cartridge width.

Will magazine capacities really be improved with this logic? :scrutiny:
My thoughts too. In addition, there appears to be a lot of dead volume in the forward section of the round surrounding the bullet (whatever that is called). The equivalent of this volume is the "air" around the bullet in a traditional round since the case necks down to the bullet diameter. Putting two traditional rounds side by side illustrates the unused volume of a traditional round as opposed to straight cylinders.

Air is lighter than whatever this component is made of so I do not see an advantage.

If the objective is to reduce the weight of ammunition then we could go to non-brass casings for traditional designed ammunition.

Don't get me wrong, I love innovation and new technology, but I do not see the advantage to this design.
 
I do not see the advantage to this design.
They said it's not only lighter, but has "300% more energy"

Textron claims the new 6.5-millimeter round has 300 percent more energy than the standard U.S. Army bullet, the M855A1

It seems to me there would be a substantial increase in recoil also, but they don't mention that law of physics. ;)
 
If that telescoping ammo is used in a traditional magazine and a traditional rifle, I wonder how well that ammo will find its way successfully into the chamber? In other words, it looks like that ammo would have feeding problems without an exposed bullet to act as a guide into the chamber.
 
And how is this different from the HK G11, a rifle system that reached field trials in 1990?
The G11 used caseless ammunition that was completely consumed upon firing, so there was no extraction/ejection cycle.

One has to assume that the plastic cases must be extracted and ejected after firing.

Edit to add:

Found this YouTube video that shows the extraction/ejection method without a case rim:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlM8IHij6Hs
 
So what happens when Soldier A with 6.5 rifle ends up with Soldier Bs ammunition for his 7.62 rifle? A box with a flag on it happens. If they adopt a round like this they are going to have to set up different lengths or significantly different diameters to prevent accidents.
 
You don't have to leave dead space in front of the projectile but it does make the chemistry simpler. As barnbwt said, if you have powder in front of the projectile you need two stages. The first is a rapidly burning power that pushes the projectile into the barrel before the second main powder charge ignites.

451CTAammo.png

The advantage over a traditional round is that telescoped ammo is shorter and lighter. You can put more ammo in the same volume which means less trips for your supply lines. It also means a soldier can carry more rounds per pound.
 
Well... shotgun shells feed, but I still think that flat face would be trouble in a fully-automatic military weapon.
Well, apart from the Pancor Jackhammer and USAS12, I guess... If it cycles in a semi-auto --which it does just fine-- it will do so in a select fire just as well. As far as the LSAT, I understand the breech-loading system operates completely different from brass-case solutions (i.e. there is no extractor, spent cases are pushed out by a plunger or by the next cartridge in series, I forget which in the most current iteration)

And how is this different from the HK G11, a rifle system that reached field trials in 1990?
The G11 used caseless ammo --no cases once fired-- whereas the LSAT (for now) is pursuing polymer cases that are lighter than metallic ones. The eventual goal is to go full caseless if it is technologically feasible (it won't be). The G11 was a wildly-impractical melding of a gun and the Anticathira Mechanism designed around a 3000rpm cyclic rate that would allow it to pop off three rounds in one (massive) recoil push. LSAT is designed to do the same stuff as carbines & LMGs, but smaller & lighter, potentially with marginally improved ballistics. The G11 darn near bankrupted H&K through a foolish misapplication of resources with nothing to show for it, that would have made Hitler blush.

Look how wide the cartridge is.
In what way? The full power class LMG round (the big one) is about the same width as a 308 case head, but much shorter and lighter. The intermediate class round is only a little bit wider than 5.56. The standard rifle capacities are still 20 and 30, respectively, but the big gun carries like the small one, and the small one even handier.

Magazine capacity is less as the round is larger in diameter. That is the tradeoff for the 40% reduction in weight.
I don't think the capacities are actually any different (I'm sure the mags are shaped slightly different, though). But what's funny, is if stick-mag capacity is reduced, drums or quad-stacks become far more viable when the weight-per-round drops this much, making up the difference and then some. An M249-type weapon could carry a third more ammo in the bag at any point, and likely still come in smaller/lighter than it is now (granted, the M249 has always been a bit of a fatty for what it's doing)

In addition, there appears to be a lot of dead volume in the forward section of the round surrounding the bullet (whatever that is called). The equivalent of this volume is the "air" around the bullet in a traditional round since the case necks down to the bullet diameter. Putting two traditional rounds side by side illustrates the unused volume of a traditional round as opposed to straight cylinders.

Air is lighter than whatever this component is made of so I do not see an advantage.

If the objective is to reduce the weight of ammunition then we could go to non-brass casings for traditional designed ammunition.

The 'dead air' where the neck taper would be is actually filled with powder on the sides of the rear-portion of the bullet (remember that a bullet sticks out the front of a normal case), so it is not being wasted. And the 'dead air' surrounding the protruding bullet, while now polymer, is also not a lump of steel in a barrel chamber that the bullet slides into, either. The (physically impossible) end game is supposedly true caseless ammo, which would make even better use of the forward volume.

Polymer has been tried as a replacement for standard-profile cases before, and case-head separations always seemed to be the result. I think it all comes down to the fact that its because of the neck taper this occurs, and the LSAT's cylinder profile avoids this. Pressure acts on the rigid breech face and flat interior of the chamber, and no tapers involved to cause stretch or flow as the case swells to fill them. In military weapons, tapered/necked chambers have to be fairly generous so as to not jam up on incidental dust, but the LSAT chamber is basically a tube that cases are pushed into and through (like a bored-through revolver cylinder) so it should be dust-resilient even at tighter tolerances.

Don't get me wrong, I love innovation and new technology, but I do not see the advantage to this design.
What was the advantage in going from M1 Ball to 308 NATO? The ballistics are nearly identical, after all ;)

It seems to me there would be a substantial increase in recoil also, but they don't mention that law of physics.
They are probably alluding to the fact that the 6.5 VLD bullet holds its velocity much better down range than M8551A1 (also possible they are misusing 'energy' as well, when 'momentum' is what they actually mean --this is a Yahoo! article on *guns* after all :rolleyes:). A ~2X heavier bullet only going ~1/3rd slower than 5.56 that holds onto its velocity better could easily have several times more energy if you are looking past 800yds downrange or so. Closer than that, energy is so high for any rifle cartridge that it's a non issue, and sectional density is the real determiner of penetration (which a VLD will likely excel at as well)

TCB
 
Sometimes pictures are better than words.

hpJ2CkX.png

I see why they need a new rifle (special chamber). Nothing like a new type of cartridge to ruin logistics. Seems like the M16 all over again. Bureaucrats telling the military what to do, and politicians making money on the deal.
 
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So what happens when Soldier A with 6.5 rifle ends up with Soldier Bs ammunition for his 7.62 rifle? A box with a flag on it happens. If they adopt a round like this they are going to have to set up different lengths or significantly different diameters to prevent accidents.

I'm sure they'll figure it out :rolleyes:

It's funny JSH1 brought up 45mm grenade rounds; I was actually going to say that the LSAT concept is very much like an auto-loading grenade round as far as the two-stage nature of its launch; it's just much trickier due to much higher pressures and the small size making it all happen much faster. I don't know for certain, but I suspect the program itself is an outgrowth of lessons learned from the stupid OICW 25mm 'smart grenade launcher' boondoggle from a few decades back. They ditched the fancy targeting/airburst nonsense for a simple metallic projectile, and shrank the ammo enough that weapon capacity wasn't noticeably affected vs. current options. Now they can demonstrate that the new weapon can do the same job, better, lighter, and smaller, and with some of its own advantages (as opposed to trying to completely re-imaging infantry tactics like OICW was seeking)

I also think I know what the real endgame is;
-Plastic-linked LSAT belted ammo in large volumes
-XM556 microgun (electric-powered 223 minigun the size of a PS90)
-Powered exo-suits and/or Terminator Killbots
 
What was the advantage in going from M1 Ball to 308 NATO? The ballistics are nearly identical, after all ;)

TCB
I was under the impression that the reduction in volume from M1 Ball to .308 NATO occurred due to an increase in chamber pressure. The bullets are identical, so the energy to accelerate them to the same velocity is identical.

With this in mind, for the new round to have equivalent ballistics that energy has to be contained in the case. The shape of the volume is not really important, just the volume itself. There needs to be enough volume for the powder, and the shape of that volume (cylinder, cylinder with tapered neck, cylinder with some of the powder in an annular cavity around the bullet, etc.) does not matter.

...unless the powder has better chemistry and stores more energy per volume. If that is the case then the real story is not the shape of the cartridge but the improved chemsitry of the powder.
 
The rifle chamber for these would have to be larger, correct?

Looking at the size for the 5.56 means that current rifles would not be able to use this new ammo.
 
I see why they need a new rifle (special chamber). Nothing like a new type of cartridge to ruin logistics. Seems like the M16 all over again. Bureaucrats telling the military what to do, and politicians making money on the deal.

Yes, it takes a completely different type of action. The LSAT uses a shuttling door to open and close the chamber.

It improves logistics considerably. You transport 40% MORE ammo per pound of weight, and you don't use a strategic resource at all - brass, which is a copper alloy, and hard to get. There's another side to the old saying "No Brass, No ammo" that was used on the firing line to show a weapon was cleared. In the current state of the art, if you literally have no strategic resource of copper mining in your country, you cannot sustain production of ammunition and you then lose the war.

This is one of the significant reasons we saw Germany attempting to switch to the 8mm Kurz round for their assault rifles, and why there was such a push to perfect steel cases.

There are also the after affects of shooting brass - on the range, considerable time is spent collecting it up in the military, as every pound checked out must be accounted for to prevent theft. Therefore you WILL turn in every scrap of packing and every possible case to clear the ammo point so that no one can be accused of taking any home. While the rules vary over time and from ASP to ASP, it remains a rule - for every round issued, an empty case must be returned.

We won't be digging old WWII cases out of the mud to clear anymore. Unfortunately there will likely be some other method of verification implemented and careers will still be on the line.

As for all that brass turned in, we have to manage it, package it, and then sell it for what it is at DRMO sales. That is a lot of administrative overhead. It is also a source of brass for large scale reloaders, which means it will dry up immediately. There will be no brass to reload, and the anti gun politicians immediately get a win in their column there. There won't be any subsidized surplus to support the MSR ammo needs. LSAT is right up their alley - it's an intended consequence and one they quietly support.

Tactically, with no brass case rattling down on a hard surface there will be less noise made, and in built up areas it means more sure footing. That also goes for training, and there will be fewer injuries slipping around on blank cases in built up area training centers. It also removes having to sweep those all up, too.

Here's another side affect - at the present time the auto industry is removing metals from brake pad compounds. It's been demonstrated that copper in the pads is causing a slow but steady toxic build up near roadways that endangers some life in the ecosystem. It's a known hazard - in the roofing trade some homeowners have a bare copper wire stapled on the ridgeline to kill mildew and mold buildup on shingles. Our training areas in field tactics are littered with brass cases dating back to WWII, and that toxic residue keeps building up as each training cycle progresses. With caseless ammo all that stops. I've seen the beaten zone of old ranges with thousands of rounds emerging from the ground, completely devoid of any vegetation after decades of disuse. Dropping the brass case will significantly reduce our future cleanup costs.

As for the use of a different cartridge we already manage that pretty well, considering the small arms assortment for a ground unit includes anti tank missles, automatic grenades for the MK 17, mortar rounds, hand grenades, machine gun ammo for the M2, M60, and M249, rifle ammo for 7.62 and 5.56 both green tip and OTM "hollow points," and 9mm submachine gun and pistol ammo which are NOT interchangeable. And that's the short list. The intent for LSAT is to replace one or more of those already being issued - which would mean eliminating 5.56 completely.

Goes to no more surplus ammo, no once fired cases. No supplementing the shooting public with taxpayer financed cheap ammo at all. Hows that for a logistic impact?

By the way, this has been going on for a long time, HK was working on it in the 1980's, and the Army has been field testing battalion sized units with weapons and ammo on the ground for more than a few years now. It's not being rushed into production at all, unlike the sudden ramp up for the M16 where Colt was pushed into suppling 400% of contract requirements to ship to Vietnam fighters. We haven't even got to that point yet - it remains to be seen how a fielding will turn out. I expect that there will be photos of these guns seen in the hands of special unit soldiers being used in hot spots around the world long before any single gun is type approved for general issue. As the Army well knows that no plan survives past the first minute in battle, we can also expect to see changes and a new variant out within a short duration. The A1 won't be long in coming as real world use is studied.

Nobody likes change, I would expect the grumping seen in this thread and it's been the same as others over the last ten years on the subject. It's been asked and answered dozens of times before, the only thing that changes are the ones who still are unaware of the progress made and it's reasons. Then again, ask folks about the Army Service Pistol Trials of 1954 and you get the same looks when you explain it was for a single action 9mm automatic - not .45. That was the start date for moving to 9mm, 30 years before it was finally approved and fielded. Some things we just put off because politics slows progress.
 
Speaking only for myself of course:

I think this is a solution in search of a problem.

When we move out on mounted or dismounted patrols, we have other weapon systems task organized into our formation to provide additional combat power. The 5.56 NATO is a balanced caliber choice, but if we really needed more (we don't) we'd just upgrade everyone to another accepted NATO standard, 7.62x51. I'm curious how they would address the recoil on a 300% increase in energy? This new cartridge-less platform wouldn't be logistically feasible unless our NATO allies accepted it too.

Weight is not an issue. A combat load of 5.56 (210 rounds, 7 magazines) is relatively light. Carrying the body armor, plate, radio, batteries, and food/water for 3 days is what kills me.

How about the whole "we have to spend money to save money" argument? We are talking about retraining and replacing weapon systems for over 1,000,000 personnel. All ammo manufacturers would have to retool production lines, and that's assuming they would even be licensed or permitted to produce the round. The taxpayer would be getting fleeced on this one.

I equate this to someone telling me yet again I need to change out my uniform for some new high-speed camouflage configuration. Nope. Enough is enough:)
 
Well... shotgun shells feed, but I still think that flat face would be trouble in a fully-automatic military weapon.

Me too. Most shotgun shells feed from a single stack magazine, while most military based rifles shoot from a double stack magazine. Still speaking of traditionally built guns on my part.
 
The rifle-and 20 rounds of ammunition-weighs a total of 9.7 pounds. By contrast, the standard M4A1 (pictured above) and 30 rounds of ammunition weigh 8.74 pounds. Textron claims the new 6.5-millimeter round has 300 percent more energy than the standard U.S. Army bullet, the M855A1. That translates into greater knockdown power against human targets, more armor penetration, and longer range.

Can someone explain to me how this is a step forward? Because 9.7 lbs with 20 rounds that have much more power than 5.56mm sounds an awful lot like the M-14 the M-16 replaced.......

Also, that 300% increase in energy sounds not only embellished (really? this round is laying down 5,000 ft/lbs? Don't think so. That's .338 Lapua territory), but even if half true, you're talking about substantially increased recoil. There's a reason we got away from full power rounds.............

Solution looking for a problem if you ask me.
 
The 5.56 NATO is a balanced caliber choice, but if we really needed more (we don't) we'd just upgrade everyone to another accepted NATO standard, 7.62x51.

As I understand it, what is happening is that we have a mix of 5.56 and 7.62 infantry rifles in use. When the .223 was perceived to have inadequate range in the open country of Afghanistan, etc, they dug M14s off the racks in the back of the armory and bought some AR10 types. So it is not a matter of upgrading everyone, they are trying for a golf bag approach with two different calibers trying to match the gun to the shot anticipated.

Early LSATs were in .22 and a few .30 for ready comparison with brass case weapons. I find it interesting that they are showing a willingness to go to an intermediate caliber.


I don't think it is the weight of a rifle and one magazine that is driving the study of plastic telescoped ammo, it is the weight of that NEXT bandoleer, belt, or case of ammo that has to be shipped and distributed.
 
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