New guy with some sizing issues

[atlasman]

New to reloading guys so please excuse any noob coments I might make.


I got a Hornady Lock N Load AP for Christmas........here is a picture of my setup. As you can see I have all the gear I need (probably more) but I am still developing the know how




I have loaded about 200 rounds so far in 270, 30 '06, and 7mm 08. Most out of new brass so sizing is not an issue, but the once fired rounds I do have are giving me a little bit of trouble during sizing.

I have both the digital headspace gauge made by Larry Willis and the Hornady caliper headspace gauge as well and for the life of me I can't seem to bump the shoulder back on my fired cases........they come out of the full length sizer the same or in some cases the headspace even INCREASED

I have called Hornady and they had me set the die down a little bit so the ram just cams over a hair (hope this is right because I called them another time and the guy said NOT to have the press cam over).

I am questioning my case lube effectiveness because sometimes the brass is HARD to get over that expander on the up stroke. I am using Hornady One Shot and spraying at a 45 angle to get some in the neck, then running a brush through the neck before sizing. Dipping every 5th case neck in graphite powder seems to really make the sizing easier but still no shoulder bump.

I have set the die so far down I should have crushed the shoulder and nothing. All I want to get is .001"-.002" for headspace and I can't seem to do it.

Dies are Hornady, shell plates are right, spindle is tight, die is right up against shell plate and nothing. It's not just one die set either as I have had the same frustration with the 30 '06 and 7mm 08 dies as well.

Rounds I have made are fine.........chamber perfectly and cycle from magazine no problem in all 3 bolt actions (all set 0.02" from the lands measured with Hornady case length gauge).


It's really the only major issue I am having and it's really not impeding me at all right now but eventually I will have to bump the shoulder on some of these cases and right now I am basically neck sizing with full length dies.


Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[243winxb]

Lube inside every case neck. Will your fired sized brass chamber? This is what is important. Some brass may not expand fully to the chamber on firing. This gives you a false reading using a tool like the Hornady caliper headspace gauge.

 

[atlasman]

Lube inside every case neck.

I spray the One Shot at a 45 angle to get some in the necks. This doesn't help much. The graphite powder helps more but should I really need to do all that?

Will your fired sized brass chamber? This is what is important. Some brass may not expand fully to the chamber on firing. This gives you a false reading using a tool like the Hornady caliper headspace gauge.

For the most part yes........a couple of them where the headspace INCREASED after sizing wouldn't chamber.

I measured all the fired cases and the ones that won't chamber so I think I have the headspace nailed...........that's what's so frustrating because I just can't get where I want to be.

What is the point of running cases through a full length sizing die if they aren't going to touch the shoulder?? May as well just neck size right?

 

[918v]

I separate sizing into two steps: Lee Collet neck die followed by a Redding body die. The former does not have an expander plug so cases glide in and out. The latter does not touch the neck.

Effortless precision.

 

[atlasman]

I separate sizing into two steps: Lee Collet neck die followed by a Redding body die. The former does not have an expander plug so cases glide in and out. The latter does not touch the neck.

Effortless precision.

Interesting.


Please elaborate.

 

[918v]

The Lee die decaps and neck sizes. The Redding die bumps the shoulder back. Neither have an expander to drag on the case mouth, so the sizing effort is nill.

 

[Walkalong]

I can't seem to bump the shoulder back on my fired cases........they come out of the full length sizer the same or in some cases the headspace even INCREASED

If the headspace "increased" you bumped the shoulder back too far, but I think you just mis spoke.

As the case goes up in the sizer the case walls start to be sized in. At this point the shoulder moves forward. It will not be pushed back until it hits the shoulder in the sizer and it pushes it back.

It sounds like the die isn't screwed down quite enough to bump the shoulder back. Go slow and easy and eventually the shoulder will get bumped back.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=504759

 

[243winxb]

........a couple of them where the headspace INCREASED after sizing wouldn't chamber.

These are the cases you use to set/get the correct die setting. Push the shoulder back just a .001" or 2 till they chamber. The rest of the brass will grow to match.

What is the point of running cases through a full length sizing die if they aren't going to touch the shoulder?? May as well just neck size right?

Some do, but depending on the load, you may need to FL size every 3 firings. Then there is the problem of the need to check each neck sized brass to see if it will chamber. When you FL size with the correct die setting, you know that every round will always chamber.

 

[243winxb]

Shell plates- Each station can give a different sizing/shoulder bump when the FL die comes in contact with the plate, if the plate is not perfect. Take measurements of your shell plates. See photo link below. COL can change also.

 

[918v]

If the shoulder is soft, the expander ball may pull the neck/shoulder junction forward resulting in decreased headspace and hard chambering

 

[atlasman]

If the headspace "increased" you bumped the shoulder back too far, but I think you just mis spoke.

Correct........I should have said the measurments on my headspace gauges INCREASED thus DECREASING headspace......in fact the brass would not even chamber. The shoulder was not "bumped back" but rather pushed or pulled out (maybe by the expanders force or maybe the die is not getting to the shoulder)

As the case goes up in the sizer the case walls start to be sized in. At this point the shoulder moves forward. It will not be pushed back until it hits the shoulder in the sizer and it pushes it back.

For whatever reason the shoulder on my cases is not being touched. I even sharpie marked the shoulder to be sure and no change.

It sounds like the die isn't screwed down quite enough to bump the shoulder back. Go slow and easy and eventually the shoulder will get bumped back.

As it is now the press slightly cams over..........if I screw it in any more the "clunking" would be rediculous and severe camming over like that can't be good for the press long term I wouldn't think.

 

[918v]

Remove the expander assembly from the sizer and do over. See if you still have the problem.

 

[Balrog]

I would try using Imperial sizing wax. Hornady One Shot is OK for 223 brass, but I have not found it to work well for 308, 3006, and other large rifle cartridges.

 

[atlasman]

These are the cases you use to set/get the correct die setting. Push the shoulder back just a .001" or 2 till they chamber.

I can't get the shoulder to bump back........that is the whole problem I am having.

When you FL size with the correct die setting, you know that every round will always chamber.

Exactly what I amtrying to do......take fired brass and just nudge the shoulder back .001-.002. For some reason I can't accomplish this seemingly simple task.

 

[atlasman]

Shell plates- Each station can give a different sizing/shoulder bump when the FL die comes in contact with the plate, if the plate is not perfect. Take measurements of your shell plates. See photo link below. COL can change also.

Saw that in another thread here and measured my shellplate...........same all the way around. I forget the measurement exactly but can check if it helps.

 

[atlasman]

If the shoulder is soft, the expander ball may pull the neck/shoulder junction forward resulting in decreased headspace and hard chambering

How do I know if the shoulder is soft?

 

[atlasman]

Remove the expander assembly from the sizer and do over. See if you still have the problem.

I will try that.

 

[918v]

Brass comes annealed at the shoulder from the factory. The level of soft differs between brands. I have seen brass so soft you could crimp it with your teeth. It gets harder after each firing, though.

You can't really test it readily, but if your expander ball hangs-up inside, it will pull the shoulder forward and change its angle. This is why you are seeing a decrease in headspace after sizing.

 

[Walkalong]

Remove the expander assembly from the sizer and do over. See if you still have the problem.

I will try that.

Let us know how it does.

Expanders can cause all kinds of problems. I use carbide ones when I can and in some cases I use bushing type dies to avoid dragging one back through the neck. Measuring where the shoulder ends up, as you are doing, can be a clue if the expander is pulling the neck/shoulder forward. Always lightly lube the inside of the necks when using expander buttons.

 

[Innovative]

This is what's happening ....

Atlasman .....

If your cases are getting longer (at the shoulder) after FL resizing, it's because your die has a FAR smaller ID than your particular chamber.

Think of it this way:​

Imagine a roll of play-dough shaped like your shell casing. Now roll that stuff on a flat surface, and you'll see that it expands lengthwise. That's exactly what's happening to your cases when you find the shoulder can't be pushed back - even when your die is set to bump the shell holder. (Some situations actually extend the shoulder.)

Shooters are often amazed at the findings when they can accurately measure the clearance "at the shoulder" that their handloads have in their particular chamber.

I recommend increasing the ID of your FL die just a bit. If you don't have a lathe, send your FL die back to the manufacturer with a few cases that were fired in your rifle.

Good Shooting,
Larry

 

[918v]

Yes, typically sizing dies have a far smaller ID than the chamber OD. They compensate for this by also being shorter inside than a SAAMI chamber.

 

[Innovative]

Typically ......

918v .....

A full length die is supposed to be slightly smaller than ANY chamber. However, they're not supposed to be FAR smaller. If you happen to have a large chamber, then the difference can be too much.

That's the most common way for a full length die to actually stretch the case shoulder. It's far more likely than the expander ball stretching the case, although that is also possible if an inside neck lube is needed and not used.

 

[gregj]

I just started loaded .223 Rem for my AR using the same setup, LNL AP with Hornady dies. I had to adjust the sizing die about 1/4 turn past where the bottom of the die touches the shell plate, in order to get the shoulder bumped back .001-.002". I called Hornady to verify this was ok, and they confirmed as long as the die is not screwed more than 3/4 of a turn past where it touches the shell plate, there should be no issues. If I didnt like the camming effect when sizing brass, I could send the die in and they will mill .005" off the bottom of the die.

 

[UniversalFrost]

the hornady one shot is not recommended for cases like the 06' (hornady even stated this when the stuff first came out)... I use the frankford arsenal and rcbs lubes that come in a pump spray bottle or the imperial sizing wax... make sure to spray liberally and let dry and to use the graphite on every case if you are not spraying into the case mouth...

also make sure that you disassembled your dies and cleaned off the storage lube/preservative from the factory and then also make sure to spray a shot or two of lube into the sizing die occasionally (i do it about once every 40rds)... also you want the cam over on the sizing step, this is to compensate for the flex the shell plate will have.

RCBS and lyman have good how to guides on setting up your reloading setups, hornady not so much..... get the 48 or 49th edition of the lyman reloading manual and read it....

 

[243winxb]

Hornady Shell Plate #1 fits 270, 30-06, and 7mm/08, the calibers you are loading. If you can not push the shoulder back so that the brass will chamber in all 3 cartridges, then its a shell plate problem.