New guy with some sizing issues

[k4swb]

If someone else has mentioned this, sorry but I didn't read every other post.

I don't load for alot of bottle necked rifle cartridges but the ones I do load for I don't bother with the expander button. I just remove the thing and am very careful to make sure the bullet is straight when starting to seat and let whatever neck tension the sizer gives me without the expander button be whatever it is. I've never really felt the need to drag an expander button back through the neck.

 

[918v]

A full length die is supposed to be slightly smaller than ANY chamber. However, they're not supposed to be FAR smaller. If you happen to have a large chamber, then the difference can be too much.

That's the most common way for a full length die to actually stretch the case shoulder. It's far more likely than the expander ball stretching the case, although that is also possible if an inside neck lube is needed and not used.

We'll see when he does his do-over.

 

[atlasman]

Expanders can cause all kinds of problems. I use carbide ones when I can and in some cases I use bushing type dies to avoid dragging one back through the neck. Measuring where the shoulder ends up, as you are doing, can be a clue if the expander is pulling the neck/shoulder forward. Always lightly lube the inside of the necks when using expander buttons.

I guess I am a little confused as to the true value of these expander balls.......I thought they sized the neck on their way back out so the bullet seats perfectly in the case. If I take the expander out won't the next be too constricted for the bullet? If not why bother with the expanders at all?

Lubing the case necks thouroughly greatly improves the force needed to size (making it even easy at times) but it has not solved the should bump isssue as of yet.

 

[918v]

Removing the expander ball will eliminate a variable, i.e. that the ball is pulling the shoulder forward.

Sizing the case without the expander ball will show you if your die is sizing correctly. If your sized case (without the expander ball) chambers easily, then guess what the problem is?

 

[atlasman]

Atlasman .....

If your cases are getting longer (at the shoulder) after FL resizing, it's because your die has a FAR smaller ID than your particular chamber.

It only happened to a couple where the case actually "grew" and could not be chambered. The rest are fine but no different then before I sent them through the FL sizer.........which bugs me. I am using dual measurements of your digital headspace gauge (GREAT product BTW ) as well as the caliper gauge from Hornady.

I took a bunch of fired cases and measured them all on the digital getting almost the exact same reading on all of them. I then zeroed it out with a case in the meter and went about resizing hoping that when I returned the case to the gauge it would read -0.001 or -0.002 but I could never get there. They would always just keep readiing 0000.......then a couple of the bad ones were reading +0.003 or so No matter how far I cranked the die into the shellplate the best I could get was no change 0000 so my die is not even getting to the shoulder for some reason.


I would think if the ID of the die was that far off it would be doing it on all the cases and not just a couple.

 

[atlasman]

I just started loaded .223 Rem for my AR using the same setup, LNL AP with Hornady dies. I had to adjust the sizing die about 1/4 turn past where the bottom of the die touches the shell plate, in order to get the shoulder bumped back .001-.002". I called Hornady to verify this was ok, and they confirmed as long as the die is not screwed more than 3/4 of a turn past where it touches the shell plate, there should be no issues. If I didnt like the camming effect when sizing brass, I could send the die in and they will mill .005" off the bottom of the die.

Pretty much what they told me as well.............the issue I have with the press camming over like that is it defeats the purpose of a progressive press if I have to slam the thing down so hard everything in the room shakes........I can't see how that could be good for press mounted powder measuring and bullet seating. Not only that I STILL couldn't get the shoulder to move even a 1/4+ turn into the plate.

 

[atlasman]

the hornady one shot is not recommended for cases like the 06' (hornady even stated this when the stuff first came out)... I use the frankford arsenal and rcbs lubes that come in a pump spray bottle or the imperial sizing wax... make sure to spray liberally and let dry and to use the graphite on every case if you are not spraying into the case mouth...

Interesting.........I didn't know that about the One Shot. What is the best lube for cases like these that won't foul the powder?

RCBS and lyman have good how to guides on setting up your reloading setups, hornady not so much..... get the 48 or 49th edition of the lyman reloading manual and read it....

I have and have read the Hornady 8th ed, Lee 2nd ed, and Lyman 49th. I feel like I have a good grasp on the info but I'm just stuck putting this one part into play.

 

[atlasman]

Hornady Shell Plate #1 fits 270, 30-06, and 7mm/08, the calibers you are loading. If you can not push the shoulder back so that the brass will chamber in all 3 cartridges, then its a shell plate problem.

Just so there is no misunderstanding..........I have loaded over 150 rounds that chamber and run through my magazines (bolts) just fine........most new brass so no big accomplishment, but I have also reloaded a bunch of once fired stuff that came out unchanged in size (I figure they just got neck sized so should be fine. Eventually though I am going to have to bump the shoulders back on these cases or they will start jamming and I don't think I am capable of doing that right now.

 

[918v]

Can you please resize a case without the expander assembly and get back to us, please?

 

[atlasman]

I will try to do it today.........battling a wicked cold and working overnights so not feeling very good at the moment.

I will run one quick when I wake up today.

 

[UniversalFrost]

also, sounds like you have a single stage press to order and ditch the progressive for your larger rifle calibers.... just my opinion...

also might want to get some RCBS or Redding dies (at least the sizer die and if you can get an RCBS X Sizer die that is even better).

 

[Innovative]

I also prefer to use a single stage press for rifle handloads. Quality rifle handloads require too much brass prep to use a progressive press.

I really like my Dillon 550 for pistol loads, and I've found the best accessory for any progressive is a good single stage press that's nearby. They can help you "fix" an occasional problem round - without getting the progressive press out of sync.

 

[UniversalFrost]

same here. only use the 550b for pistol or occasional .223 batches

I do have a trimmer setup head for the 550b though and that is the only time I let any rifle brass touch the progressive (makes trimming large batches really easy and quick).

 

[atlasman]

OK..........so it is the expander ball that is the problem. I took 2 Federal cases (once fired) and lubed them with One Shot. I ran the first neck over the brush on my case prep center a few times to clean it, then I dunked the neck in Imperial graphite powder. The case still sized hard.

Next case I just took the spindle out and ran the cartridge through. Obviously sizing was a breeze.


Off to the digital headspace gauge. First shell no change, exact same as before sizing. Case ran without the expander was bumped back 0.002".


Now what do I do??



BTW I ordered a Lee Classic Cast breech lock last week that should be here tomorrow so I will be seeing if a single stage is more convenient soon enough.

 

[UniversalFrost]

personally, if you already have the Lock and load setup I would have went with the hornady single stage, that way you have the same quick release collets for both presses...

on the expander ball it sounds like you need to contact the maker of the dies and get them to fix it or send you a new expander.

 

[Innovative]

atlasman ........

It looks like you just proved that the expander ball is your problem. However, if your particular die is designed to require an expander ball, then you have no choice but to use it.

The graphite powder is a good idea, but it is supposed to be used on the INSIDE of the case neck to help your expander ball slide through.

That's why I recommend bushing type FL dies whenever possible, because they are designed to avoid using an expander ball. They also allow you the advantage of controlling neck tension with far more control.

Say . . . . If you couldn't "measure" this, how would you ever be able to figure out this problem?

 

[Walkalong]

Now what do I do??

Redding makes carbide expander balls that work on their dies, old RCBS dies, and new RCBS dies with some modification. They work well, but are pricey.

You could buy a bushing type sizer, either neck only or full length.

You could but a body die and a bushing neck die, or a body die and a Lee Collet neck sizer.

Brass harder than the soft Federal may not give you that problem if you lube the necks.

Not bumping the shoulder back at all, but just keeping it where it was when fired, as long as it chambers easily, is not a problem though. As the cases work harden they may stop getting drug forward by the expander ball.

 

[918v]

Or he can buy a Redding FL bushing die. My preference is the Redding body die and the Lee collet neck die, though.

My experience with carbide expanders is that they drag inside the neck just as bad as regular expanders. I'd skip the expander altogether.

When you bumped the shoulder .002" did the case chamber easily?

 

[Walkalong]

Mentioned that, just not by brand.

 

[k4swb]

if your particular die is designed to require an expander ball, then you have no choice but to use it.

Well............. Not really.
If you can seat the bullet in a sized case that has had no expander ball pulled back through the neck you do not need the expander button.
Also if no one has mentioned this, you could put the decap/expander ball assembly in a drill and sand then polish the ball down to a size that would let it just do as much as needed to get the neck to the size needed to seat the bullet.

That's why I recommend bushing type FL dies whenever possible, because they are designed to avoid using an expander ball. They also allow you the advantage of controlling neck tension with far more control.

This I agree with. Much better way to do case resizing.

 

[Innovative]

Expander Ball ... This is why ...

Well............. Not really.
If you can seat the bullet in a sized case that has had no expander ball pulled back through the neck you do not need the expander button.
Also if no one has mentioned this, you could put the decap/expander ball assembly in a drill and sand then polish the ball down to a size that would let it just do as much as needed to get the neck to the size needed to seat the bullet.

k4swb ......

The purpose of the expander ball (on dies that require it) is to expand the neck ID from the inside, and 99% of the time you won't be able to seat a bullet without shaving it - unless you use the expander ball.

The main problem with using an expander ball is they can stretch cases, and they often increase case run-out. I prefer to not use them. However, not all of my dies are S-Type Redding dies. Whenever I use conventional (non-bushing) sizing dies, I use a carbide expander ball, because they reduce friction much better than graphite neck lube.

 

[k4swb]

Innovative........

The purpose of the expander ball (on dies that require it) is to expand the neck ID from the inside, and 99% of the time you won't be able to seat a bullet without shaving it - unless you use the expander ball.

I guess I've been lucky. I have never actually had a die that needed the expander ball to get the case sized to seat a bullet. I had quite a few problems until I figured this out.

A lot of times I use a universal decapping die and leave the whole stem out of the sizer. If I were forced to use the expander ball I would sand it down to where it just did the absolute minimum it needed to.

I've never tried the carbide button but I have heard others have good luck with them.

 

[918v]

If you use a VLD chamfer toool, you may be able to seat a bullet without the use of an expander ball.

Another option is to use a Sinclair or K&M neck expander die like this:



This expander pushes against the neck instead of pulling like the expander ball.

 

[James2]

Rounds I have made are fine.........chamber perfectly and cycle from magazine no problem in all 3 bolt actions (all set 0.02" from the lands measured with Hornady case length gauge).

OK, you just said they work fine. So what is the problem again? I don't get it. If your rounds chamber and the bolt closes without undue force, you are good to go. Stop worrying.

If your shell holder hits the die on the upstroke, that is full length sizing. You can't get any more than that. If this is not right, you will need a different die, but like I said above, what's the problem if they work?

When you need to bump a shoulder is when the bolt won't close easily.
You can chamber some right after sizing to make sure they will chamber and the bolt close without undue pressure.

 

[Funshooter45]

There are no universal rules here, but you might be surprised how often you don't need the expander ball at all. I agree that it is often the problem in sizing because it can pull the shoulder out just a little bit when it does its job. That is simple physics. Not the fault of the die maker really. In most cases, it's because the cases are not the same thickness of brass in the wall. Just think about it. The main part of the sizing die works from the outside, assumes the brass is a certain thickness, so it shoves it in from the outside, figuring that the inside diameter will be pretty close to what it's supposed to be. Most times that is mighty close. But if you have some thicker walled brass, then the inside diameter is too narrow. So the job of the expander ball is to take care of that if necessary. So as you pull the case out, it expands it to whatever it needs to be. Fine, but if it needs to expand your brass quite a bit, it HAS to pull against something and if the friction is too much then the result is your shoulder gets stretched a little bit.

You can sand or grind the expander ball down a bit to avoid that. Works fine, but your inside diameter will be a tiny bit smaller than "ideal". No matter. When you seat the bullet, the bullet acts as the expander and forges its own path. It is its own expander ball then but pushing "down" instead of pulling "up" like the expander ball. Basically the same as just taking the expander ball out completely. Either solution works out very well most all the time. Once in a very great while, that inside diameter will still be too small for the bullet to start without shaving some of it off. But that's why we chamfer the mouths of cases though. That is nearly always enough.

Another solution to get the bullets seated though if you just remove the expander ball to avoid its problems. If normal chamfering is not enough to get the bullet started, get a Universal Expanding Die (very cheap). Make sure you understand how to use it. Just expand the very top of the case by a very very small amount. We are talking a couple thousandths at most. Just enough for the bullet to seat without shaving.

But it's easy to "blame" the expander ball or the whole sizing die, when the real culprit is the variation of the thickness of the walls of the brass case.