New law in PA. You must say the pledge or else

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They ought to have a class on the constitution and the bill of rights this could be in junior high at 8th or 9th grade, where the students take a semester to read and understand those documents.

In a STATE RUN SCHOOL?!? We'll see pigs clogging the Air Traffic Control system before something like this happens.

The LAST thing that the state wants to do is to give kids the tools to question government. The system as operated now puts a large group of lemming-like Taxpayer Units into production each year. While true that over the course of time some of them wake up, realize that they've been had and resist, a great majority simply continue to be drones their entire lives.

Teach the kids how this country is SUPPOSED to be run, how to think and reason? The System would implode if they discover that the Emperor has no clothes.
 
Just as bad as trying to stop people from saying the Pledge. I say it because I want to, because it means something to me. If you want kids to say it then teach them about this country, its' history and meaning and what it cost to create it and keep it. Legislating they say it by rote is counter-productive and meaningless.
 
I can remember saying the pledge every morning when I was in elementary school. The principal would come on the PA system in the school, and we would all stand and recite it. I don't really recall anybody refusing. Of course, it was elementary school, so we weren't sophisticated enough to really have a clue what was going on.

Personally, I think this system works just fine. The principal/teacher leads the kids, and anybody who doesn't want to participate just doesn't, and nobody sends a letter to mom & dad, the local cops, the FBI, fatherlan... er... homeland security, or anybody else. I just don't see what the purpose of this law is... I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by that.
 
golgo-13

The original Pledge of Allegiance was written by Francis Bellamy. It was first given wide publicity through the official program of the National Public Schools Celebration of Columbus Day which was printed in The Youth's Companion of September 8, 1892, and at the same time sent out in leaflet form to schools throughout the country. School children first recited the Pledge of Allegiance this way:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."
"The flag of the United States" replaced the words "my Flag" in 1923 because some foreign-born people might have in mind the flag of the country of their birth instead of the United States flag. A year later, "of America" was added after "United States."

No form of the Pledge received official recognition by Congress until June 22, 1942, when the Pledge was formally included in the U.S. Flag Code. The official name of The Pledge of Allegiance was adopted in 1945. The last change in language came on Flag Day 1954, when Congress passed a law, which added the words "under God" after "one nation."

Originally, the pledge was said with the right hand in the so-called "Bellamy Salute," with the right hand resting first outward from the chest, then the arm extending out from the body. Once Hitler came to power in Europe, some Americans were concerned that this position of the arm and hand resembled the Nazi or Fascist salute. In 1942 Congress also established the current practice of rendering the pledge with the right hand over the heart.

The Flag Code specifies that any future changes to the pledge would have to be with the consent of the President.

(The above article on the history of the Pledge of Allegiance was written by American Legion)

1. There weren't a whole lot more "decades" before Ike for the Pledge, than decades after. My version is the only version I ever learnt.
2. The original version had no "to the flag of the United States" or "of America" in it. Should we go back to that?
:D
 
No offense, but don't you realize it's that a chunk has been added to yours?

Tamara

Yeah, I like the one I repeated, robot like, for many years of my misspent youth..........................:D
 
how is requiring students to make an attempt at being patriotic different than requiring students to make an attempt at being religious by saying a prayer at school?

i dont see much of a difference. if religion is to be taught in the home, then so should patriotism. schools should only focus on academics, not nationalism. teach them why some people are patriotic but dont make them feel different for not being such, if thats what their parents teach, and how the child feels.
 
There's actually a bit more to it.... :D

http://www.eff.org/CAF/civil-liberty/pledge.history

How did this Pledge of Allegiance to a flag replace the US Constitution and Bill of Rights in the affections of many Americans? Among the nations in the world, only the USA and the Philippines, imitating the USA, have a pledge to their flag. Who institutionalized the Pledge as the cornerstone of American patriotic programs and indoctrination in the public and parochial schools?

In 1892, a socialist named Francis Bellamy created the Pledge of Allegiance for *Youth's* *Companion*, a national family magazine for youth published in Boston. The magazine had the largest national circulation of its day with a circulation around 500 thousand. Two liberal businessmen, Daniel Ford and James Upham, his nephew, owned *Youth's* *Companion*.

One hundred years ago the American flag was rarely seen in the classroom or in front of the school Upham changed that. In 1888, the magazine began a campaign to sell American flags to the public schools. By 1892, his magazine had sold American flags to about 26 thousands schools(1).

In 1891, Upham had the idea of using the celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus' discovery of America to promote the use of the flag in the public schools. The same year, the magazine hired Daniel Ford's radical young friend, Baptist minister, Nationalist, and Christian Socialist leader, Francis Bellamy, to help Upham in his public relations work. Bellamy was the first cousin of the famous American socialist, Edward Bellamy. Edward Bellamy's futuristic novel, *Looking* *Backward*, published in 1888, described a utopian Boston in the year 2000. The book spawned an elitist socialist movement in Boston known as "Nationalism," whose members wanted the federal government to national most of the American economy. Francis Bellamy was a member of this movement and a vice president of its auxiliary group, the Society of Christian Socialists(2). He was a baptist minister and he lectured and preached on the virtues of socialism and the evils of capitalism. He gave a speech on "Jesus the Socialist" and a series of sermons on "The Socialism of the Primitive Church." In 1891, he was forced to resign from his Boston church, the Bethany Baptist church, because of his socialist activities. He then joined the staff of the *Youth's* *Companion*(3).

By February 1892, Francis Bellamy and Upham had lined up the National Education Association to support the *Youth's* *Companion* as a sponsor of the national public schools' observance of Columbus Day along with the use of the American flag. By June 29, Bellamy and Upham had arranged for Congress and President Benjamin Harrison to announce a national proclamation making the public school flag ceremony the center of the national Columbus Day celebrations for 1892(4).

Bellamy, under the supervision of Upham, wrote the program for this celebration, including its flag salute, the Pledge of Allegiance. His version was,

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the Republic for which it stands -- one nation indivisible -- with liberty and justice for all."

This program and its pledge appeared in the September 8 issue of *Youth's* *Companion*(5). He considered putting the words "fraternity" and "equality" in the Pledge but decided they were too radical and controversial for public schools(6).

The original Pledge was recited while giving a stiff, uplifted right hand salute, criticized and discontinued during WWII. The words "my flag" were changed to "the flag of the United States of America" because it was feared that the children of immigrants might confuse "my flag" for the flag of their homeland. The phrase, "Under God," was added by Congress and President Eisenhower in 1954 at the urging of the Knights of Columbus(7).
 
*sighs*

This is rather ridiculous.

Using the recital of the flag as a measure of patriotism, and sending letters to parents when they refuse to, smacks of pressure to recite an allegiance, smacks of the worst kind of lemming-like mentality that is running our schools nowadays. This is nothing more than pressuring children, especially older children, into reciting a pledge that is against their beliefs.
 
Laws requiring kids to say it.
Laws requiring schools to report kids who don't.
Laws requiring schools to prevent the pledge from being said.
Adding/removing words so as not to offend.
Whatever.

All silly.

Love the rhetoric on both sides, though.

On the one side we've got the "compulsory" and "required" (not really as any student can choose not to say it with - as far as I see - no adverse impact) and bringing up the bit about "well, it was changed this year" (and ignoring the previous changes).

On the other we've got people playing the "patriotism" card, as if Patriotism is judged based on chanting rather than the meaning that some place on the words - something that can't be legislated.
 
Have had mandatory pledge in WA State for quite some time now(Maybe 25 years). Few years ago, went from weekly to daily observance. Kids w/ objections stand silently while others recite. If teacher had a problem, had kid volunteers lead it. At first there was all the moaning, complaining, threatening, arguing on moral, constitutional, pain-in-the-*** grounds like here. When actually implemented? No problems. I think one or two parents tried to make legal cases out of it, as far as I know these went nowhere.
 
This is nothing more than pressuring children, especially older children, into reciting a pledge that is against their beliefs.

Lon- Did you really mean that???

God isn't in the pledge anymore? It shouldn't have been in there the first place I AGREE but whats wrong with it now? What words in the pledge are against someones beliefs?:uhoh: Liberty and Justice for all?
 
You guys seem to be a bunch of alarmists. While the law does seem to pressure the kids to recite the pledge, it does not actually require them to recite it. The law was enacted (for anyone who cares to actually know) because of various schools that were refusing to recite the pledge. People wanted it, but the school said no.

I stopped saying the pledge somewhere around 9th grade. Some teaches cared, some didn't. I was still strong enough to stand up for my convictions, and my parents were fine with it. "I'm going to tell your mommy on you" isn't going to work unless the parents disapprove, in which case they will be teaching their kids what they believe.

You have yet to show what is so evil abou this.
 
Bravo8- BRAVO!!!!!


Do we need to bring back the old "sticks and stones may break my bones but God in the Pledge will never hurt me?"


Oh sorry I added to it.
 
If we didn't have compulsory public schooling, there would never be unsolvable controversies like this. Parents could choose what kind of schools to put their kids into, with whatever outward show of (patriotism, religious fervor, political leanings) seemed good to them.

But as long as we are all forced to pay into the same system, and as long as it is difficult-to-impossible for most people to break free of the system, there will be clashes between folks who want their own kids taught one thing and folks who want their kids taught the exact opposite.

pax

A general State education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another; and as the mold in which casts them is that which pleases the dominant power in the government, whether this be monarch, an aristocracy, or a majority of the existing generation; in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by a natural tendency over the body. ... All attempts by the State to bias the conclusions of its citizens on disputed subjects are evil. -- John Stuart Mill
 
Am I the only one who noticed that this law affects public, private and parochial schools? That seems to be stepping way over the line. Regardless of the merits of reciting the Pledge, I don't want to see the gov't gaining (more) control over the daily routine in private schools.
 
Two points:

1. Why do we continue to insist that public schools take the place of parents by socializing our children? Obviously a rhetorical question because the institutions that used to be responsible for teaching children have broken down -- the family, churches, etc.

2. In my way of looking at the world, if I am required to do/say/recite something it soon becomes meaningless. I want my children to be patriotic because they choose to be and because that was the example my wife and I set in our home.
 
NSF003 asked:

Should I be disobedient and not say the pledge, just to excercise my rights? Should I encourage others to do the same?

nsf

Answer, at least mine would be, ABSOLUTELY.

Are you sure that this had been enacted, or is this simply something that "you heard", which might not be correct?
 
I'm in PA, it is a law, but the only ones who don't say the pledge are either :
a) contrary *******s who said it before and just don't like being required to say it now
or
b) to the left of Lenin (one of these geniuses said with a straight face the only reason he'd rather live in the USA than Iraq was "we have better infrasructure and living conditions" and that saddam was better than Bush b/c "at least saddam is only f---ing with his own people)

My POV is : Its a free country, but if you don't feel you can swear allegiance to it, use your freedom to move somewhere else where americans don't have to listen to your ****.
 
Category a) sounds like my kind of people.

pax

if they give you ruled paper, write the other way. -- e.e. cummings
 
I repeat my question. Am I misunderstanding, or has this proposal actually been passed. If so, consider the following. In 1943, at the height of WW2, in a case from West Va, the USSC ruled the law UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I believe that this one would be also, as well as dumb. By the way, one more question. If a student refused to say the pledge, and upon notification the parents replied something to the effect of, or exactly SO WHAT, what then? To whom might this disasterous situation be reported?
 
Then the teacher can put the parents' names in his book, and convey that information to the other parents at the next parent-teacher conference. The parents have a right to know whether there are unpatriotic elements in town, you know. The other parents may feel it's their patriotic duty to "encourage" the errant few to move to another country, somewhere where they don't love freedom as much.
 
I'm in PA, it is a law, but the only ones who don't say the pledge are either :
a) contrary *******s who said it before and just don't like being required to say it now
or
b) to the left of Lenin (one of these geniuses said with a straight face the only reason he'd rather live in the USA than Iraq was "we have better infrasructure and living conditions" and that saddam was better than Bush b/c "at least saddam is only f---ing with his own people)
Oh really?
No category for those with religious objections, or who feel that their dedication is not to a flag or a Republic, but to a Constitution?
My POV is : Its a free country, but if you don't feel you can swear allegiance to it, use your freedom to move somewhere else where americans don't have to listen to your ****.
So ... "You're free ... to do as I like ... 'r get outta my country."

I believe that having a pledge or having the word "God" in that pledge are harmless to even the most simple-minded kids as long as the parents show a basic amount of attention to rearing them, but this simplistic "If'n you don't do as I do, you're either a dirty A or a filthy B" mindset is utterly illogical and absurd.
 
I love it... not saying the pledge is legislated as a Stalinist mindcrime for the kiddies, and its opponents are slandered as leftists? Good call!
thumbs.gif


Here is a thought: the pledge is meaningless if you don't want to say it. So why make people say it? That's like making Yankees watch NASCAR... sure, it might convert a few by sheer mindless repetition (see the cars go round and round, round and round...), but is mostly a waste of everyone's time.

Genuine patriotism would require a historical education for our kids that isn't a total joke. And encouraging critical thought. But wait, we are talking about PUBLIC schools, so forget I ever brought it up. :rolleyes:
 
I didn't mean to say ALL of the people with objections fall into these categories, but all the people I HAVE SEEN in school do.
The ending comment was a suggestion. If someone honestly has that much of an objection to the USA, it would be nice to see them actually show some commitment and ACT on their objections.
 
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