New London property thieves demanding rent. (Kelo)

[GunnySkox]

Y'know, the more I read about people promising insurrection, rebellion, "voting from the rooftops" and all that jazz, the more it becomes clear to me that it can't happen.

I'm not saying that nobody here or elsewhere has the cojones to actually do such a thing, if the time were to come, but the people as a whole (gun owners, rights activists, etc. included) simply won't, and can't do it. We're like the Proles in 1984. And even if we did, what hope would we have?

Imagine you actually start an uprising in New London, and defeat (or they "defect" to the insurrection) the City and State Police Forces. What happens now? The FBI, the ATF, and the National Guard will show up. If, by some magical happenstance, you put the hurting on them, other States' NG show up, the Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps show up, and Uncle Sam stamps out your pathetic little protest. Y'know, just like He did in 1787 (Shays Rebellion), 1794(Whiskey Rebellion), 1799(John Fries' Rebellion), and 1861-65 (the American Civil War). And the rest of the country will just remember a bunch of crazy cult right-wing loonies who got burned down in New London.

Having a rifle behind every blade of grass doesn't mean much if your opponent has an AFV behind every tree.

I don't mean this directed toward anyone in particular on the forum, or against anyone's ideology, I'm just thinking aloud (atext?).

~Slam_Fire

 

[buzz_knox]

I guess the question becomes whether our friends in blue or green will actually follow orders to use force to take homes away from people. Whether they do or don't will tell us who our enemies or friends are.

 

[R.H. Lee]

And you’d be exactly right. We no longer live in a constitutional republic. What we have is a benign oligarchy. Representation has become a thing of the past, replaced by career politicians, most of them lawyers, acting only in self interest, perpetuating the myth of representative government. It’s all a big show, and the PowersThatBe know that as long as they don’t get too flagrant or too greedy, they’re free to manipulate the lives of their ‘constituents’ through economic and legal coercion all the while increasing their own power and wealth.

There’s really nothing that can be done about it. Sure, you can vote, but you know your choices are limited to those with access to the existing power structure have been ‘pre-approved’ as worthy and not threatening to the status quo. Anyone else won’t show up on the ballot, having been thoroughly discredited by the government/media/corporate beast beforehand.

There’s really no choice but to submit to the prevailing society in which we live; go along to get along. You can’t rebel; you’ll be squashed and vilified. Might as well enjoy the simple pleasures of cheap imported goods, high taxes and the illusion of freedom.

It was nice while it lasted.

 

[Yowza]

If there's this much outrage over this in general, I wonder how the people of New London (not the property "owners" in question) feel about it. Were I the developer of this project that is supposedly about to get underway, I'd be a bit worried about sabotage and such. If and when the project is completed, it wouldn't surprise me to see it not last long.

Rick

 

[chaim]

I guess the question becomes whether our friends in blue or green will actually follow orders to use force to take homes away from people. Whether they do or don't will tell us who our enemies or friends are.

Anyone who doubts how strongly the men and women in uniform (any uniform) are conditioned to follow orders need only to look at what is going on in Israel in the Gaza Strip. The soldiers on the front line tasked with "evicting" the settlers are mostly from the religious zionist units (i.e. the group in Israel most strongly opposed to the pull out). On Israeli newspapers you can find photos upon photos of soldiers breaking down crying, many are having complete breakdowns because what they are doing is so strongly removed from what they believe in. Yet they are still doing it. I can't see how anyone would doubt that our (or any nations') well trained police and military units would ever turn against their bosses. Especially when you consider there would be plenty of people who believe in what they are doing and I doubt the US would do what Israel is doing to prove a point (Israel could easily put in units made up of demographic groups more supportive of the policy but it wants to make a statement about its degree of control over the populace so there will never be such a rebellion again).

 

[KriegHund]

Thats friggin rediculous!!!!!! Charging backrent? For chr...er..yeah.

And it will continue to happen until someone does something, and then they will make it worse.

"Floggings will continue until morale improves"

 

[Chrontius]

I thought long and hard about this one trying to figure out a legitimate Devil's advocate position...nope, can't do it.

Seems like some people are in dire need of a large bulldozer and a lot of steel plate.

Bah, you have no sense of style. I think the only really appropriate response would be some form of salted earth tactic. I know that's just me being bitter, but god DAMN, people.

I'm going to start looking into moving to Switzerland.

 

[cracked butt]

LOL

If I only had a flame throwing robot

 

[Pilgrim]

If there's this much outrage over this in general, I wonder how the people of New London (not the property "owners" in question) feel about it. Were I the developer of this project that is supposedly about to get underway, I'd be a bit worried about sabotage and such. If and when the project is completed, it wouldn't surprise me to see it not last long.

It seems a few strategic mailings of copies of 'Unintended Consequences' would move things along.

Pilgrim

 

[deanf]

Speaking strictly from a legal standpoint, the city's argument is sound.

It's morally wrong, of course, but legally sound.

 

[KriegHund]

Thats the sad part, deanf. And its only legally right because the people doing it say its right. Endless loop of self-promoting power!

Nobodys ever going to do anything until its almost too late. Ill eat my words gladly if something actually does happen before its almost too late.

I say almost too late because its never too late, unless all humans die or something.

 

[Ian]

Anyone who doubts how strongly the men and women in uniform (any uniform) are conditioned to follow orders need only to look at what is going on in Israel in the Gaza Strip.

See also, Ordinary Men, by Christopher Browning.

 

[Cellar Dweller]

Most are missing the REAL point

The city of New London defines what the property is worth.
The city defines the amount of "rent" due.

The city, enraged that the serfs defied the Government and embarassed by the backlash, exacts revenge by defining back rent >= defined property "value."

Of course, since Government is always benign, the city will offer to settle...for nothing (or next to nothing). Legalized theft, blessed by the Supreme Court.

 

[miko]

It's a new definition of chutzpah: Confiscate land and charge back rent for the years the owners fought confiscation.

Not exactly new.

(4) Conference on the Jewish Question between Hermann Goering, Reinhard Heydrich and Joseph Goebbels (12th November 1938)

Reinhard Heydreich: In almost all German cities synagogues are burned. New, various possibilities exist to utilize the space where the synagogues stood. Some cities want to build parks in their place, others want to put up new buildings.
Hermann Goering: How many synagogues were actually burned?
Reinhard Heydreich: Altogether there are 101 synagogues destroyed by fire, 76 synagogues demolished, and 7,500 stores ruined in the Reich.
Hermann Goering: What do you mean "destroyed by fire"?
Reinhard Heydreich: Partly they are razed, and partly gutted.
Joseph Goebbels: I am of the opinion that this is our chance to dissolve the synagogues. All those not completely intact shall be razed by the Jews. The Jews shall pay for it. There in Berlin, the Jews are ready to do that. The synagogues which burned in Berlin are being leveled by the Jews themselves. We shall build parking lots in their places or new buildings. That ought to be the criterion for the whole country, the Jews shall have to remove the damaged or burned synagogues, and shall have to provide us with ready free space.


miko

 

[miko]

Speaking strictly from a legal standpoint, the city's argument is sound.
It's morally wrong, of course, but legally sound.

You are confusing law with legislation.

It is unlawful to enslave people. Property rights derive from self-ownership of one's body and violating them is slavery.
A totalitarian state can create legislation making slavery (in its various forms) legal but it cannot make its actions lawful.
Law is not created (except by God, if you are a believer) - it is discovered by people.

In general morality has nothing to do with it (though this particular case is certainly immoral). Lawful action may be immoral by a given society’s standards. One may condemn his soul to hell without violating anybody’s rights.

miko

 

[Don Gwinn]

Funny, I was just thinking of Goebbels, too.

:banghead:

 

[DelayedReaction]

The America I knew as a child is not the America I know as a young adult. What kind of America will I know as an old man? Are my eyes opening to what was already around, or are things really changing for worse?

 

[spartacus2002]

The short answer is, it's getting worse. There is currently a convergence of several historical trends that lead to "interesting times." The practical effect is that we end up with more and more governmental control as those in govt (i.e., the political class that get elected and the bureaucratic class that make govt function (I hesitate to call it "work")) see the need to (a) address more and more issues in response to public demands for safety & security, and (b) exercise power, because power not exercised is power lost.

Time and time again, govt forgets that it is there to manage the govt, not to manage our lives. There is a big difference between managing the organs of govt and managing society as a whole. That is why I refuse to call any elected official "my/our leader(s)."

I am an American. I need no leader and I refuse to accept one that demands that role. I merely demand that the President/Congress/Courts to execute their duties and efficiently manage the govt by staying the hell out of my life.

 

[deanf]

It is unlawful to enslave people.

I'm not so sure that it is.

Before our civil war, slaves were held legally. The only legal standard being the laws enacted by the lawfully elected legislature of the day.

Legislation becomes law when it is approved by all controlling authorities (in a general sense the congress and then the president) , and on the date set forth in the legislation. In this particular case, the law is the 5th Amendment to The Constitution. The controlling authorities at the time were the congress, and then the states. The law took effect 15 December 1791.

In the case in question, the plaintiffs and defendants used every legal means at their disposal to air their grievances, and regardless of anyones opinion about the ruling, it does hold the force of law.

 

[dustind]

Are my eyes opening to what was already around, or are things really changing for worse?

With a few exceptions it is getting worse, but most of the writing was on the wall many years ago. It was easier to ignore then since it never hit so close to home. (no pun intended)

 

[denfoote]

It's a new definition of chutzpah: Confiscate land and charge back rent for the years the owners fought confiscation.

Are there actually any Jews involved in this??
If so, then they really really need to read Torah and spend some long quality time with their Rabbis!!

 

[cuchulainn]

Are there actually any Jews involved in this??

The Yiddish word chutzpah doesn't imply involvement of Jews. It's merely a synonym for gall. That's the beauty of English -- it readily adopts good words from other languages.

Anyways, my fantasy is that every person angry over this travesty will send one letter a day (even just blank paper) to the New London tax administration office. Millions of letters day after day would create a sort of physical denial-of-service attack against that government.

My secondary fantasy involves thousands of protesters linked arm-in-arm on the ground like the people in the Gaza synagogue yesterday.

 

[Brett Bellmore]

Actually, slavery IS lawful, or can be. Read the 13th amendment; It just has to be a penalty for breaking the law to be lawful.

 

[publius]

The America I knew as a child is not the America I know as a young adult. What kind of America will I know as an old man? Are my eyes opening to what was already around, or are things really changing for worse?

With respect to eminent domain issues, a little of both. The legal precedents upheld in Kelo are 50+ years old. Read the opinions, if you have not already done so.

They do seem to be using this power more. The looting is getting more flagrant, but it has been there for quite a while.

 

[The Freeholder]

They do seem to be using this power more. The looting is getting more flagrant, but it has been there for quite a while.

Quite a while indeed. Much if not all of what we see was noted as potential abuses by those who opposed the US Constitution. When I was in high school, we were required to do quite a few readings from The Federalist Papers. It was many years out of high school (and college as well) that I was introduced to the Anti-Federalists. Funny how we were never told about these people in school.

If you're curious, here's a starting point.