New member stumped about his Enfield

[deimos256]

Hello all this is my first post and it's related to a savage enfield. I purchased this rifle yesterday and from all the research I have done I'm a little stumped as a few things just don't add up.

First off it's marked us property and on the side of the receiver it's marked with the s and no 4 mkI (no asterisk) and it's dated 1942. Also there is no flaming bomb acceptance mark. The barrel has 6 grooves, not 2. What really stumps me is the band right above the trigger which is marked like this,

1323
AL
19903

I had read that savage serial numbers have a c in them but since this one starts with a 1, it would be British? Also I'm wondering if the bolt is mismatched. On the back of the handle it's stamped,
BL (interlocked) 62L 7323 or 1323, the first digit is hard to tell.

Sorry this is so long I'm just trying to figure out a little history behind it and whether or not the $175 I paid for it was a steal or a ripoff. Thanks for any input.

 

[deimos256]

Perhaps I should also add that there are no discernible marks on the butt plate or any of the wood.

 

[Roan]

I can't help you with all of it, but the 'US PROPERTY' mark is a relic of the Lend-Lease program during WWII. Before the US entered the war, it entered into an agreement to provide arms and equipment to the UK. However, in order to maintain neutrality and comply with international law (thus making sure US ships were protected from U-Boat attack), the US couldn't make new arms for the UK, but it was able to LEND arms to the UK out of the US stocks. So, when the US produced Lee-Enfield #4 Mark 1* rifle, they marked the US PROPERTY. This way, if the arms were captured, the US could claim ignorance and say that the arms were US property that had simply been lent to the UK. This was a flimsy ruse, but provided necessary plausible deniability. These rifles were never accepted or used by the US, they were just marked that way.

 

[IROCZ]

For $175 you got a great piece of history. A steal as far as I'm concerned. The only real issue with it is finding good affordable ammo. You may want to start reloading! BTW, Hows the bore condition?

 

[deimos256]

After some brushing and a dozen or so patches I got it clean and I'm no expert at judging rifling but it's very deep with pretty sharp grooves. Def better than my surplus Mauser and Mosin.

If it was made in the us by savage why wouldn't it have the flaming bomb acceptance mark and a serial number with a C in it? That's what makes me so curious about it.

 

[Joe in fla]

You said:
"First off it's marked us property and on the side of the receiver it's marked with the s and no 4 mkI (no asterisk) and it's dated 1942. Also there is no flaming bomb acceptance mark."

I'm no expert on Enfields but that's definitely a Savage made rifle. I don't think they put the US ordinance mark (Flaming Bomb) on them. Oops, just checked and they did use the FB but I'm not sure where it was stamped. I'm guessing that it may be on a part of the rifle that's been taken off of your rifle.

"On the back of the handle it's stamped BL (interlocked) 62L 7323 or 1323, the first digit is hard to tell. "

The L in the 3rd character indicates that that part is part of a Long Branch (Canada) manufactured rifle. It sounds like you have a mixmaster there.

FWIW Savage made rifles should have a C in the 3rd character of the SN, not the first. I'm not sure if the first two characters (numeric) are a lot number or something else or if they have any specific meaning.

Did you buy this rifle somewhere in central Florida? It sounds like one that I looked at at a show in Cocoa a few weeks ago. It had a sporterized stock and looked like a mixmaster so I passed on it.

I do remember that the one that I looked at had an A-something number on the band. I didn't recall what manufacturer that might be for and I went home a tried to look it up but my little Enfield book doesn't say. Also going back to serial numbers, my understanding is that they're supposed to be NN A NNNN, where N are numeric digits and A is an alpha character. I have no idea what your 1323AL19903 means!!! That's one too many alpha characters, two too many digits in the first part of the serial number and one too many digits in the last part of the SN! Very strange!

BTW since that's obviously not the original bolt for this receiver, you SHOULD have the head space checked BEFORE firing it!

 

[deimos256]

Well I wrote the numbers on the ring like that to show that it's not a continuous number. I read that five digit serial numbers starting with 1 meant British manufacture. As for the acceptance mark every pic of it I have seen was right next to the savage s and year it was made.

Also yes I'm located outside of daytona but the guy I bought it from was from Georgia.

 

[deimos256]

Also this gun doesn't have a sporterized stock on it.

 

[Malamute]

It's pretty common for Enfield bolts to be changed out. The bolts were often renumbered, as yours seems to be. The headspace was adjusted by changable bolt heads, they were numbered from 0 to 4, tho most are in the lower-mid number range, and not all the numbered bolt heads are an exact length, meaning that a short No 2 bolt head may be about what a long No 1 bolt head will be for length. Best to measure them if any adjustment is needed, but most shoot ok even if a bit loose regarding headspace, so long as it isnt hugely out of spec. I believe wartime spec was looser than modern commercial spec. Chambers tend to be a bit sloppy also, so don't be alarmed when the brass looks lopsided and bulgy ahead of the rim after firing. Neck sizing for reloading helps brass life. They simply didnt care about such things in military rifles, that it worked every time was what was important, not if the shells could be reloaded or how pretty the brass was after firing.

I think you got a good price on it.

There may be some information of interest to you here.

http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/main.htm

.

 

[DougW]

Sounds like a Savage #4mk1*, approe 1943 or1944. Look like one of these:



These are my 4 Savage built #4mk1*'s, 1942-1943 vintage. You got a fairly good deal on yours.
Remember, these ar emilitary rifles. The headspace on a .303 in on the rim, not the shoulder. Be sure that you are working with someone that really knows the Enfield rifles. They are a bit different than other rifles when it comes to headspace. People that really don't know the Enfield will alarm you with information that is not quite accurate. The chambers are built to be a bit loose, and fired ammo from an Enfield will show signs that in other cartridges would indicate an issue with headspace.

 

[deimos256]

It is a savage, I know that by the s next to the model markings. But it's a no4 mkI not a mkI*. Mine has an actual Bolt release lever, not the machined notch.

 

[krinko]

deimos,

The six groove Savage rifles are really difficult to find, congratulations.
Markings changed at Savage over the production run---for a '42 Mk1 like yours, the ordnance bomb would be located on the right side bayonet lug and on the buttsocket directly under the original serial number.
The serial number on my '42 is: 8C0271---it would be about right for yours to have a single series number left of the "C", if the original number is still there. It's easy to read the "C" as a "0".
The "AL" number is an inventory number and is thought to be a post-liberation mark for the Armee Luxembourg---and it's probably stamped right over where the Ordnance bomb should be, too.
-----krinko

 

[deimos256]

ok well this gun must just be a mix of parts, the more i look the more LB(interlocked) markings i find, which is longbranch? The fornt sight blade is marked and so is the frontmost retaining ring with sling loop, and also the safety lever. The bayonet lug has no flaming bomb on it and also none is shown by the serial number, now im new to enfields so im guessing the buttsocket is the steel band above the trigger? I have taken a few pics of the markings and im going to try and get them up.

 

[Malamute]

It's hard to tell what someone is thinking from an internet post, but don't let it bother you that it isn't all matching parts. It wasn't likely a gun somebody built in their garage. Finding all matching Enfields is rare. Most went into various arsenals at different times for work and refinishing. When disassembled, parts were put in bins, and reassembled with no regard to matching other than bolts, which were renumbered in many cases. This was also the case with Springfield rifles, it just didnt matter to the military armourers if all the parts matched as far as manufacturer.

 

[deimos256]

As long as the rifle shoots good I'll be happy. I'm not looking for a museum piece, I'm just curious as to what I have and granted my research is very limited, some of what I have read just doesn't add up. The picture I posted above with all the numbers, I'm assuming the 5 digit number is the serial number, which doesn't have an acceptance mark near it, doesn't have a c in it, which was indicative of savages. From what I can tell it's part of the receiver so it's not like it was pieced in from another rifle.

 

[deimos256]

After looking at some pictures of other savages , they all have markings on the butt socket that are different than mine. Could this receiver have been used in a rebuilt rifle?

 

[DougW]

Marked US Property, but the numbers on the butt socket are very confusing. (BTW, your ejector screw is broken off/missing.) I have never seen the mixing of ID marks such as yours. It is normal for a Savage to have mixed parts from Long Branch (LB) as they traded parts all during the production of the rifles. I don't think it is a parts rifle. The serial numbers could have been added during an FTR, but there are no appairant marking that it was FTR'ed. I would like to see more pics of the whole rifle. Your camera work is excellant, BTW!

The serial number is very confusing. A Savage should have a *C**** type of number. The AL19903 would usually be either Fazakerley, BSA, or Maltby (my memory is not up on this, I need my reference books), but I would not question Krinko on his knowlege base. The 1323 could be the actual Savage serial number, but not all early Savage MK1's were marked with the "US Property". The butt socket does not look "scrubbed" either. Very confusing!

Savage rear sight, and a nice rifle. We need Krinko to chime in here with some more history on this contradiction. Love the rifle!

 

[deimos256]

Ejector screw, is that something I need to replace asap? Also I can take pictures this afternoon just need to know of what specifically

 

[deimos256]

Alright I popped the upper hand guard and discovered that the barrel is savage, with a us acceptance mark on it, the only acceptance mark I can find. I'm guessing it's a long branch with savage parts, because there are no external acceptance marks and the only markings on it are either long branch or savage. Also where would the ftr mark be and what would it look like?

 

[deimos256]

<bump>

 

[DougW]

It is a Savage reciever with the "US PROPERTY" marks, so it is definately a Savage. Remember, Savage and Long Branch swapped parts so it is normal to find mixed pards on either manufacturer. A Long Branch (Canada) would not come under the Lend Lease Act, and will not be marked with the "US PROPERTY".

The FTR marking would be on the left side of the reciever below the US marking. It would be electropencile, and look like FTR(F) or FTR (ROF) of done at Fazakerley, and if done at Maltby, the FTR would have the T standing inside the middle of a letter M (Maltby).

The ejector screw head is broken off, and if it ejects OK, I wouldn't spend too much time on it. You would want to remove it with the best method to not scratch up the reciever (nice rifle).

One of my #4mk1's up close to show the ejector screw:



You can see the screw on the left side of the reciever. This is my Fazakerley with the Ishapore Screw. It is my primary shooter, and all my reloads are for this rifle.



You can see it here. Bottom rifle is a South African Savage, middle is a Fazakerley #4mkII, top rifle is a Fazakerley#4mk1 with the FTR (F) and the date marked on the reciever. I no longer have the middle mkII and the top mk1.

 

[madcratebuilder]

The markings on the wrist are post production. The wrist was scrubbed and remarked. Obviously a MkI no star. It's not uncommon to find a mix of Savage and Long Branch parts together as the factories were just a few hundred miles apart and supported each other for needed parts. Your safety lever is LB.

Your original wrist marking would be similar to this rifle.

 

[BruceB]

It's interesting to note that the Savage rifles were also in Canadian service, at least post-war.

In the 1950s and 1960s, I was in a couple of Canadian Army formations, and saw quite a few US Property-marked #4 rifles.These gave rise to considerable speculation in the ranks, but no one ever explained to us just what the meaning of the markings was.

It's obvious that , at least as far as these rifles were concerned, the US-Canada border really didn't exist. I think they are examples of the finest sort of Allied co-operation. In this case, "the system" worked, and worked well.

I'm still looking for Long Branch #85L7408, issued to me in 1958....just for the pure hellery of it....

 

[deimos256]

Yea the bolt, safety, handguard band are all longbranch. No idea what the stock is but the receiver, barrel, and upper handguard are savage. According to Ian Skennerton the serial number is maltby and he figures this is a rebuild. The top 4 digit number he doesn't recognize though so who knows.