Rob96
Member
I have the opportunity to buy a NM Blackhawk Convertible in 45LC and 45ACP. My question is how warm of a load can this handle in 45LC? I know there are differences in the Blackhawk line.
New Model Blackhawk 45LC Loads
- Thread starter Rob96
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
If its the new smaller frame Blackhawk?
23,000 PSI, same as +P .45 ACP.
rc
23,000 PSI, same as +P .45 ACP.
rc
Standard new Blackhawks with the standard frame can take just about any commercial .45 Colt you can fit in them.
There are Ruger-Only sections in manuals for handloaders that can help you out there.
The Flattops need a little more caution.
Denis
There are Ruger-Only sections in manuals for handloaders that can help you out there.
The Flattops need a little more caution.
Denis
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
Take out the cylinder and look at the rear. The cylinder in the center of this photo is an 'original model' (large frame) Vaquero cylinder chambered for 45 Colt. The 'original model' Vaqueros were built on the same sized frame as the New Model Blackhawks and had the same cylinder dimensions. The cylinders on either side of the Vaquero cylinder are an Uberti Cattle man on the left and a 2nd Gen Colt on the right. If the thickness of the chamber walls on your Blackhawk cylinder resemble the thickness of the chamber walls of this Vaquero cylinder, you are good to go with the loads in the Ruger Only section of loading manuals. If they resemble the chamber walls of the other two cylinders, restrict yourself to SAMMI Max loads.
Take out the cylinder and look at the rear. The cylinder in the center of this photo is an 'original model' (large frame) Vaquero cylinder chambered for 45 Colt. The 'original model' Vaqueros were built on the same sized frame as the New Model Blackhawks and had the same cylinder dimensions. The cylinders on either side of the Vaquero cylinder are an Uberti Cattle man on the left and a 2nd Gen Colt on the right. If the thickness of the chamber walls on your Blackhawk cylinder resemble the thickness of the chamber walls of this Vaquero cylinder, you are good to go with the loads in the Ruger Only section of loading manuals. If they resemble the chamber walls of the other two cylinders, restrict yourself to SAMMI Max loads.
35 Whelen
Member
Handloader #234 had an article on the New Model Vaquero in 45 Colt, which as I understand is the same frame, and presumably the same strength, as the New Model Blackhawk in 45 Colt. Brian Pearce had this to say on the subject of the strength of this revolver:
"This raises the question: What loads are safe in the New Vaquero? The weak link, so to speak, is the cutout for the locking bolt notches that leaves between .030 and .035 inch actual chamber wall thickness (which varied some from chamber to chamber). Considering the steels Ruger is currently using and with the above cylinder measurements, indications are that the gun is absolutely safe with loads that generate 22,000 to 24,000 psi. Certainly the gun will take even greater pressure than this, but with safety first priority, as well as longevity, I would advise against using loads that exceed that limit."
I own and load for a NM Vaquero in 45 Colt and loads in the 22K psi range are as heavy as I've ever loaded, and as heavy as I will ever load for it.
35W
"This raises the question: What loads are safe in the New Vaquero? The weak link, so to speak, is the cutout for the locking bolt notches that leaves between .030 and .035 inch actual chamber wall thickness (which varied some from chamber to chamber). Considering the steels Ruger is currently using and with the above cylinder measurements, indications are that the gun is absolutely safe with loads that generate 22,000 to 24,000 psi. Certainly the gun will take even greater pressure than this, but with safety first priority, as well as longevity, I would advise against using loads that exceed that limit."
I own and load for a NM Vaquero in 45 Colt and loads in the 22K psi range are as heavy as I've ever loaded, and as heavy as I will ever load for it.
35W
35 Whelen
Member
I know the frames are not identical because one has adjustable sights and the other doesn't, but other than that, the frames and the external dimensions of the cylinders are the same.
I own an NM Blackhawk .44 Special and a NM Vaquero in 45 Colt. The cylinders of each revolver have identical diameters and the .44 Special cylinder will drop right in the Vaquero and rotate and lock up normally. The 45 Colt cylinder won't quite fit in the Blackhawk frame but this is only because it is .003" longer than the Special cylinder.
So, that is why everyone brings up the NM Vaquero. It appears that what applies to the NM Vaquero, load wise, should apply to the NM Blackhawk.
35W
That is incorrect 35W. I'm assuming what you have is a NM Blackhawk .44 Special Flattop. The Flattops are a smaller frame size than regular NM Blackhawks. Typical NM Blackhawks have the same frame as a Super Blackhawk.
The New Model Blackhawk came about around 1973. The New Vaquero came about in 2005. Despite both being "New", they are not related.
The New Model Blackhawk came about around 1973. The New Vaquero came about in 2005. Despite both being "New", they are not related.
35 Whelen
Member
We're both wrong, and we're both right!
I was wrong in assuming all "New Model" Blackhawks were the smaller frame such as that on which my .44 Special is based. However, Ruger chambers the 45 Colt convertible in the New Model Blackhawk and the Flat Top Blackhawk, which presumably is the smaller frame .
So, the answer to the OP's question is going to be determined by which convertible he's wanting to buy.
And FWIW, it's my understanding that the frame itself is not what determines the "strength" of the revolver (or should we say how stout of a load may be used), rather the diameter of the cylinders, and thereby the thickness of the cylinder walls, that determine what level of load may be used.
35W
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Ah, the old 'New Model' quandary.
Frankly, I cannot understand for the life of me why Ruger decided to call the new, smaller version of the Vaquero the New Vaquero. It has lead to endless confusion. They got it right when they were naming the old 22 semi-auto the Mark II and Mark III. What will come after the New Vaquero? The New and Improved Vaquero?
OK, let's get this right. In the early 1970s Ruger came up with the New Model Blackhawk. It had the same sized frame and the same sized cylinders as the old Super Blackhawk. The reason it was called New Model is because it incorporated the new transfer bar safety system. All New Model Blackhawks can be distinguished at a glance because they have two pins for hammer, trigger, and cylinder stop to rotate around. Like this:
The older Blackhawks that preceded the New Model can be easily distinguished from the New Models because they incorporated three screws for the hammer, trigger, and cylinder stop to rotate around. Like this:
In 1993 Ruger began manufacturing the Vaquero. It was nothing more than a New Model Blackhawk with the target sights eliminated and the frame contoured to resemble a Colt Single Action Army. It had the same transfer bar system as the New Model Blackhawk, so technically speaking, the Vaquero was a 'New Model'. See where it starts to become confusing? Here are a couple of stainless 'original model' Vaqueros. Notice I always call them 'original model' in lower case letters and quotations, to distinguish them from the New Vaquero.
In 2005 Ruger ceased production of the 'original model' Vaqueros and replaced them with the New Vaquero. Not New Model Vaquero, simply New Vaquero. Look at one some time, that is what they say right on them.
Still with me? Let's back up to the original Three Screw Blackhawks. Ruger built them approximately 10% larger overall than the old Colts. That's why they could take full house 44 Magnum loads. I have said this over and over again, but apparently it needs to be repeated again. It is not the frame that contains the pressure of a cartridge firing, it is the cylinder. The cylinders were bigger with the old Blackhawks, and the frames needed to be bigger to accommodate the bigger cylinders. When the New Model Blackhawks came out in the 1970s, the cylinders and frames were the same size as the old Three Screws. That's why they could take the pressure of heavy loadings. The 'original model' Vaqueros had the same overall dimensions and were capable of digesting the same loads.
When Ruger discontinued the 'original model' Vaqueros in 2005, the New Vaquero was scaled down to be about the same size as the original Colt Single Action Army. Like this:
The smaller New Vaquero had the cylinders sized down, and there was less metal surrounding the chambers. That's why the New Vaquero is not available chambered for 44 Magnum. In fact, when the New Vaquero first came out, Ruger stated quite plainly that they would never chamber it for 44 Special, in case some bozo tried reaming one out to 44 Mag. Ruger is extremely litigation conscious, they have been burned in the past.
If you have one of the new, and I shudder to use the word, Blackhawks chambered for 44 Special, it is built on a frame the same size as the New Vaquero. The cylinder is also the same size as a New Vaquero cylinder.
Look at the photo I posted earlier. The cylinders tell the story. If your 45 Colt chambers show the same amount of space between the chambers as the cylinder in the center, you are good to go with the 'Ruger Only' loads listed in many manuals. If you have a New Vaquero, there is not as much meat around the chambers. Tread very carefully if you exceed SAAMI Max pressure of 14,000psi.
Frankly, I cannot understand for the life of me why Ruger decided to call the new, smaller version of the Vaquero the New Vaquero. It has lead to endless confusion. They got it right when they were naming the old 22 semi-auto the Mark II and Mark III. What will come after the New Vaquero? The New and Improved Vaquero?
OK, let's get this right. In the early 1970s Ruger came up with the New Model Blackhawk. It had the same sized frame and the same sized cylinders as the old Super Blackhawk. The reason it was called New Model is because it incorporated the new transfer bar safety system. All New Model Blackhawks can be distinguished at a glance because they have two pins for hammer, trigger, and cylinder stop to rotate around. Like this:
The older Blackhawks that preceded the New Model can be easily distinguished from the New Models because they incorporated three screws for the hammer, trigger, and cylinder stop to rotate around. Like this:
In 1993 Ruger began manufacturing the Vaquero. It was nothing more than a New Model Blackhawk with the target sights eliminated and the frame contoured to resemble a Colt Single Action Army. It had the same transfer bar system as the New Model Blackhawk, so technically speaking, the Vaquero was a 'New Model'. See where it starts to become confusing? Here are a couple of stainless 'original model' Vaqueros. Notice I always call them 'original model' in lower case letters and quotations, to distinguish them from the New Vaquero.
In 2005 Ruger ceased production of the 'original model' Vaqueros and replaced them with the New Vaquero. Not New Model Vaquero, simply New Vaquero. Look at one some time, that is what they say right on them.
Still with me? Let's back up to the original Three Screw Blackhawks. Ruger built them approximately 10% larger overall than the old Colts. That's why they could take full house 44 Magnum loads. I have said this over and over again, but apparently it needs to be repeated again. It is not the frame that contains the pressure of a cartridge firing, it is the cylinder. The cylinders were bigger with the old Blackhawks, and the frames needed to be bigger to accommodate the bigger cylinders. When the New Model Blackhawks came out in the 1970s, the cylinders and frames were the same size as the old Three Screws. That's why they could take the pressure of heavy loadings. The 'original model' Vaqueros had the same overall dimensions and were capable of digesting the same loads.
When Ruger discontinued the 'original model' Vaqueros in 2005, the New Vaquero was scaled down to be about the same size as the original Colt Single Action Army. Like this:
The smaller New Vaquero had the cylinders sized down, and there was less metal surrounding the chambers. That's why the New Vaquero is not available chambered for 44 Magnum. In fact, when the New Vaquero first came out, Ruger stated quite plainly that they would never chamber it for 44 Special, in case some bozo tried reaming one out to 44 Mag. Ruger is extremely litigation conscious, they have been burned in the past.
If you have one of the new, and I shudder to use the word, Blackhawks chambered for 44 Special, it is built on a frame the same size as the New Vaquero. The cylinder is also the same size as a New Vaquero cylinder.
Look at the photo I posted earlier. The cylinders tell the story. If your 45 Colt chambers show the same amount of space between the chambers as the cylinder in the center, you are good to go with the 'Ruger Only' loads listed in many manuals. If you have a New Vaquero, there is not as much meat around the chambers. Tread very carefully if you exceed SAAMI Max pressure of 14,000psi.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Great photo essay!
the blackhawk 45 caliber convertible revolver is built using the smaller frame. it is not suitable for "ruger only" loads listed in various reloading manuals. modern convention relegates it to 45acp pressures (23,000 psi).
the smaller frame has a smaller frame cutout and, therefore, a smaller cylinder.
murf
the smaller frame has a smaller frame cutout and, therefore, a smaller cylinder.
murf
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
People work really hard to complicate things. Ruger has been building a large frame .45 convertible Blackhawk safe for 32,000psi loads since 1971. It is only the new Lipsey's flat-top .45 convertible that is built on the smaller frame.
If it doesn't look like this, blued or stainless, it's a large frame.
That didn't sound right to me, so I went hunting. The Internet is a wonderful place.
(Everything you want
... [and occasionally some you don't ]).Someone had already asked Ruger about this and gotten an answer:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=2248506&postcount=5
Driftwood Johnson
Member
If it ain't a flat top, it is built on the same large frame that mine was built on in 1975. My comments about 'Ruger Only' loads apply.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The question is not about the .45Colt only guns versus the convertibles but WHICH convertible is being referenced. There's the standard catalog large frame model and then there's the medium frame distributor special Lipsey's gun pictured above.
ghitch75
Member
large frame convertible 45ACP/45C.....deer killin' machine!!!
35 Whelen
Member
This was my assumption as well, but such is not the case. As Craig and Driftwood both pointed out, Ruger builds a 45 Convertible on the large AND the Flat Top frame.
35W
il.bill
Member
Driftwood J. -Howdy
Take out the cylinder and look at the rear. The cylinder in the center of this photo is an 'original model' (large frame) Vaquero cylinder chambered for 45 Colt. The 'original model' Vaqueros were built on the same sized frame as the New Model Blackhawks and had the same cylinder dimensions. The cylinders on either side of the Vaquero cylinder are an Uberti Cattle man on the left and a 2nd Gen Colt on the right. If the thickness of the chamber walls on your Blackhawk cylinder resemble the thickness of the chamber walls of this Vaquero cylinder, you are good to go with the loads in the Ruger Only section of loading manuals. If they resemble the chamber walls of the other two cylinders, restrict yourself to SAMMI Max loads.
Thank you for taking the time to post these pictures and this information, along with the fabulous Post #12. You have helped make things much clearer to me, and thank you again for sharing.
Airman Basic
Member
If Ruger comes out with a small frame with the sight ears, I'm giving up.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Me too!
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