New Philly PD order on OC

[Sam1911]

Also, the special rule for Philadelphia is, IMHO, a racist law based on the fact that compared to the rest of Pennsylvania there are a lot of Black people in Philadelphia.

I'd say that's a pretty far stretch, considering that a "City of the First Class" is entirely defined by population numbers. But if you have something to back the racist angle, I'd want to hear it.

 

[swinokur]

you know what they say:

you might beat the rap but you wont beat the ride

a group like SAF needs to go to court to settle this

long protracted court cases cost a lot of money. more than most of us can shoulder
'

 

[Sam1911]

How does this policy get tested without risking jail time?

Well, I don't see exactly how you'd end up in jail at all if this policy is followed strictly. They stop you, disarm you, check your LTCF, give you back your gun and ammo, and you're free to go. If that's not how it goes, you could appeal but then that wouldn't be fighting the policy because the policy hadn't been followed.

I guess if you carried openly WITHOUT an LTCF and got stopped, disarmed, ID'd, and then arrested, you'd be in jail, but I don't see how that helps the case. (Maybe it does because you might then have better standing to challenge the legality of the search? Seems far fetched, though.)

 

[Sam1911]

you might beat the rap but you wont beat the ride

What ride? We're (at least theoretically) equally upset by the stop, disarm, and ID when no arrest happens as we would be with a stop, disarm, and arrest if the detainee didn't have the LTCF.

Are you suggesting refusing to provide ID or the LTCF? Not arguing, I just don't understand you angle, here.

 

[bushmaster1313]

I'd say that's a pretty far stretch, considering that a "City of the First Class" is entirely defined by population numbers. But if you have something to back the racist angle, I'd want to hear it.

Sam:

A City of the First Class means Philadelphia, which coincidentally is the only big city in Pennsylvania with a large percentage of Black People. Pittsburgh, for example, is a very White big city.

All of Pennsylvania including Philadelphia is 10.9% Black, but Philadelphia is 43.5% black. That means the non-Philadelphia part of Pennsyvania has a very low percentage of Black people. To me it seems like the politicians are saying that a city full of Black people cannot be trusted with guns so they need special laws.

Remember, the term "Saturday Night Special" has its roots in the term "N-word Saturday Night."

Sorry about the tough language and the raw statistics, but I say it to support my position that this is a racist policy.

 

[GRIZ22]

So ... seeing a gun being carried -- which, it is explained in the preceeding paragraphs, there is no reason to ASSUME is being done illegally -- is reason enough to detain and investigate a possible crime being committed.

I think this will make an interesting lawsuit.


It's along the same lines as if the Game Warden (or whatever they are called in your area) ask you for a hunting license or fishing license. In many jurisdictions if you are carrying a gun in a hunting preserve during hunting season you are presumed to be hunting. I don't particularly care for the stop for any reason but can see why its done.

I don't think there will be any lawsuit that wins anything with this.

 

[LHRGunslinger]

Seriously? They needed a frigging memo?! I admit I didn't know PA firearms law worth didly before I joined THR but I figgered it out REAL quick.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Let's look at some other cities with draconian gun laws:

New York City: 45% White
Washington DC: 36% White
Chicago: 42% White

Gun Control laws started big time with the push to disarm the freed slaves and its racist roots continue to this day.

A good read on this subject is the amicus brief of the Congress of Racial Equality in the Heller case.

 

[mp510]

Gun Control laws started big time with the push to disarm the freed slaves and its racist roots continue to this day.

A good read on this subject is the amicus brief of the Congress of Racial Equality in the Heller case.
__________________

Actually, your history is very short sighted. You need to look back to times well before 1865, or even 1791, or even 1776 for that matter to trace the true origins of gun regulation in the United States. You really need to read up on American history a little bit more to understand the dynamics behind the general remarks you are making--- I'm assuming that you read the JPFO or Georgia org literature on the subject- which are more academic than most propoganda, are still propoganda pieces and need to be treated as such. I'm not saying I like gun control in any form, because I don't...but, as somebody who has a history degree- it's hard to put things into the simplistic terms that you are attempting to use.

The city of a first class law is race neutral. Any municipality in PA, including one that doesn't have a single minority inhabitant, not just one with a strong minority population
could meet the definition. You are attempting to claim that coincidence means causation- a legal argument that has been tried and failed many times in drug/crack cases (Dumas in the Eastern District of Washington is a great example) and is in general faulty logic. The more logical argument, which is probably something along the lines of what phl would assert is that the "City of a First Class" privelege/designation was created to afford municipal legislators in large cities the ability to govern a high population/ high population density urban area in a manner that may not be suited well by state governance.

 

[Sam1911]

Any municipality in PA, including one that doesn't have a single minority inhabitant, not just one with a strong minority population
could meet the definition. You are attempting to claim that coincidence means causation-

Yes, this is the point I was making. A "City of the First Class" is simply any city with 1,000,000 residents or more. So, Pittsburgh could be one -- and every single one of them could be white and it would still be a "City of the First Class" and the rule to only open carry with a valid LTCF would apply to them, too.

Now, the fact that there are a lot of minority folks living in Philly might make it seem a de facto racist law, but without something more than population composition to go on to prove this point, I don't think it holds any water.

 

[swinokur]

Are you suggesting refusing to provide ID or the LTCF? Not arguing, I just don't understand you angle, here.
__________________
-- Sam

after thinking about it I guess I am. The point I was making was that if you protest and get arrested, and subsequently exonerated in court, you still would have gone through arrest, gun confiscation, and trial. My reference to those events was "the ride"

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

It's interesting that the wording of the actual order says "seize". Words, especially in legal documents, mean things. The order is stating that officers will seize property, something specifically protected by the Constitution, even though they do not have Probable Cause that a crime has been committed.