New SIG P220 "Carry" is heavier than my older P220 fullsize!

[MCMXI]

I picked up a new SIG P220 Carry yesterday (ordered online) and immediately noticed that it felt heavier than my P220 fullsize that I've had since 1992. The Carry has a 3.9" barrel whereas the fullsize has a 4.4" barrel. I put both on the scale (8-round empty mag inserted) and the Carry model weighs 2.06 lb (935 grams) compared to my older P220 which weighs 1.96 lb (890 grams). The slide on the Carry has considerably less material machined out of it. Also, when did SIG start using external, slide mounted extractors? Was there a problem with the original style? Both of my older SIGs, the P220 mentioned above and a P225 bought in 1995 have the smaller internal extractor mounted in the slide.

Thanks.

 

[MCMXI]

By the way, this is not a complaint ... merely an observation with some questions.

 

[230therapy]

All steel slide versus the older folded slide. The rail adds a bit of weight too.

The SIG Forum has the details.

 

[9mmepiphany]

it's the difference between the milled stainless slide (your Compact) and the older carbon steel folded slide, in combination with the rail

the folded slide 220s did not have a problem with the internal extractor. the issues (it's not really big enough to call a problem) came about when the introduced the milled slide to the 220 line and kept the location of the extractor the same. there would sometimes be a tolerance combination which would cause feeding problems. the solution was going to an external extractor.

 

[Lonestar49]

...

Also, besides what has been mentioned above, the Carry models slides are much thicker than the full size, much thinner, (in width) P220 slides..

No biggie, you're gonna enjoy owning/shooting that beautiful 45 Carry.. I have no doubts..

In regards to the internal extractor and, the now used, external extractor issue, some did have problems with the internal extractors and, some, like myself, have not with theirs or my P220R, with internal extractor, which now has just over 2000 flawless rounds.. Hasn't missed a beat once..

Enjoy,


Ls

Ps.. as with "any" new gun, it will get "lighter" as your muscle motors get in-tune with it.. lol

 

[MCMXI]

Thanks very much for the help guys ... I really appreciate the expertise. Time to put together some .45 ACP fodder.

 

[JDGray]

Pretty sensitive hands to feel a .10 lb difference Great guns, enjoy!

 

[IMTHDUKE]

One of my fav shooters....weighin in a 1lbs 15.5oz with internal extractor

 

[agtman]

The newer Sig 220 SS models are certainly built heavier on purpose because, within a week or so of receiving them, their owners are promptly shipping them out to Bruce Gray @ Grayguns for a complete conversion to 10mm AUTO, after which they never look back ...

See, e.g., this thread:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/324107199/p/57

 

[MCMXI]

The newer Sig 220 SS models are certainly built heavier on purpose because, within a week or so of receiving them, their owners are promptly shipping them out to Bruce Gray @ Grayguns for a complete conversion to 10mm AUTO, after which they never look back ...

Not sure that I'd be interested in the "upgrade" which doesn't appear to be available from GGI at the moment. If I wanted a 10mm pistol, I'd probably buy a Glock or similar. Here's a photo of my 1993 P220 with the new Carry version.

 

[MCMXI]

Pretty sensitive hands to feel a .10 lb difference Great guns, enjoy!

I think it's the weight distribution rather than the overall weight that felt different since I doubt I could detect 0.10 lb difference.

 

[agtman]

Not sure that I'd be interested in the "upgrade" which doesn't appear to be available from GGI at the moment. *** Here's a photo of my 1993 P220 with the new Carry version.

Nice-looking pistols.

Actually, if you read the GrayGuns thread, he's planning to do another batch of customer-submitted 220s, so if you're at all interested you can contact him to get squared away.

But a 10mm Glock 20 or 29 would be a readily available and certainly less expensive choice.

 

[Lonestar49]

That's it IMO

I think it's the weight distribution rather than the overall weight that felt different since I doubt I could detect 0.10 lb difference.

...

Exactly IMHO, as 3yrs ago when I first put money down on a P220 Carry, the following week when I went back to put some more money down on it, I saw a (now my) P220 full size and when I handled it, it felt lighter, more evenly balanced, vs the smaller, yet wider (slide), holding both at that moment and changed my mind and went with the full size, as it just felt, lighter..

P229n/r 40 - P220R - P229R CT 9mm


But as I have said, either model are "great shooters" and if and when my budget allows me, I will get a SAO P220 Carry model.. for sure.


Ls

 

[fastbolt]

The overall differences have been fairly well discussed.

The subject of the extractor is an interesting one, in a way.

When Sig went to the solid machined slide without the breech block they changed the design of the internal extractor. The new design was 'pre-tensioned', like the early internal extractor, but unlike the early version the method of installation had an effect upon the tension.

The new design's installation required that it be snapped up into place where it was held in place by virtue of its spring tension, not simply held in place within the breech block and the inside of the slide, and the extra tension was needed so the extractor retained sufficient functioning tension to operate as intended after it was subjected to the tension necessary for it to be snapped up into position.

During the armorer class we were told this new design was considered a "use once" design by the factory and that if it were ever removed from the slide that it must be replaced with a new one. The reason was that repeated removal and installation would reduce the original tension and might cause functioning problems.

The problems apparently came with creating the right amount of necessary 'pre-tension', and consequently getting the subsequent correct amount of normal tension.

During the class I asked why Sig engineers hadn't simply adopted the successful external spring & offset plunger extractor design used in the other models. The instructor said he was not aware of the reason ... and then some time later we saw that they did, indeed, eventually decide the external pivoting design was a better option for the new .45 series.

As an armorer I like the design and execution of the Sig pivoting external extractor with the offset spring-powered plunger. It reminds me of the Rem 870's extractor, in a way.

As long as the intermediate (second) extractor works in any particular P220, though, it wouldn't seem to be a problem for an owner or user. They just seem to have made a decision to incorporate improvement upon the extractor design that brought things more or less current with the rest of their model line of service pistols.

At one point it appeared possible that my former agency might have adopted the P220 and/or P226, and that would have been fine with me. The P220 is basically my 4th/5th 'favorite' .45 pistol design of all available pistols on the market and is a fine service-type pistol. (We didn't adopt the 220, BTW, instead adopting what's essentially my 3rd favorite .45 pistol, but that's another story.)

Congrats on the new 220.

 

[MCMXI]

fastbolt, if I've read your post correctly, the P220 that I bought in '93 has a stamped steel slide so it has the first generation extractor. The P225 that I bought in '95 also has a stamped steel slide so it too must have the first generation extractor. The Carry that I bought a few weeks ago, and the Combat that I bought today both have the third generation extractors.

As an armorer I like the design and execution of the Sig pivoting external extractor with the offset spring-powered plunger. It reminds me of the Rem 870's extractor, in a way.

And the Sako extractor as well?

The P220 is basically my 4th/5th 'favorite' .45 pistol design of all available pistols on the market and is a fine service-type pistol. (We didn't adopt the 220, BTW, instead adopting what's essentially my 3rd favorite .45 pistol, but that's another story.)

Don't leave it like that. I'd really like to know your 3rd, 2nd and 1st choices.


Lonestar49, very nice pistols and dogs. Sorry to hear that you've lost so many of your friends. I'm on my third and fourth Rottweilers (New Zealand born brother and sister) who are eating me out of house and home.

Here's the Combat that I bought today ... sorry about the crappy photos. The gun shop owner used his iPhone at my request. I'm going to swap out the grips for my favorite Hogue grips ASAP.

 

[fastbolt]

And the Sako extractor as well?

Never owned or worked on a Sako. Dunno.

Don't leave it like that. I'd really like to know your 3rd, 2nd and 1st choices.

Sigh ... I halfway expected someone might call me on that ...

Okay, strictly from a personal perspective when it comes to practical reliability, functionality & armorer support in a service-type .45 (meaning NOT taking into account what some folks might like to label as aesthetics or eye-appeal when choosing a gun), on any given day my personal preferences for a 'working gun' in .45 run ... in approx order ...

1911
M&P 45
45XX
P90DC
P220
G21
HK45

The earlier comment about "4th/5th" choice is the result of having handled and used a lot of 220's over the years (going back to when they were imported as the BDA), but eventually deciding I preferred the robust nature and durability of the boxy (and admittedly "less-than-aesthetic") Ruger KP90DC when it came time to spend my money.

That doesn't mean I dislike any of the others which I've owned, tried or had the opportunity to use during some T&E, or that I necessarily consider them to be of 'less quality'. Not at all. For example, I borrowed and carried a nice HK P9S .45 for a while which I was considering buying, but finally decided not to keep it because of the lack of really good leather and parts support.

It simply means that at some point, for one reason or another, I've decided that I didn't feel sufficiently interested enough in one or another of some of them to either keep them, or even spend my own money buying one in the first place.

At the present time the 9 pistols I own which are chambered in .45 are represented by the first 4 makes/models on the above list.

I'd have no problem whatsoever carrying issued models of the Sig 220, Glock 21 or HK .45's.

Sig has improved and refined their 220 design over the years since it's started seeing a lot of LE use, and it's a pretty decent gun.

I tend to favor the traditional double action version myself, and don't particularly care for the enhanced double action only (DAK) version. Lots of folks like the DAK, though.

The SRT (Short Reset Trigger) option they introduced was interesting. (FWIW, we were told it had originally been developed for a LE contract they were competing for, according to the instructor & rep in my Sig armorer class.)

Nice guns. Congrats again.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The SRT (Short Reset Trigger) option they introduced was interesting. (FWIW, we were told it had originally been developed for a LE contract they were competing for, according to the instructor & rep in my Sig armorer class.)

the SRT was developed by Sig to allow the reset of the trigger (in SA) on their 226 Elite to compete with the S&W 4006 for the CHP contract

the reduction of trigger reset distance really needs advanced training to optimally take advantage of it

 

[Lonestar49]

Lonestar49, very nice pistols and dogs. Sorry to hear that you've lost so many of your friends. I'm on my third and fourth Rottweilers (New Zealand born brother and sister) who are eating me out of house and home.

Here's the Combat that I bought today ... sorry about the crappy photos. The gun shop owner used his iPhone at my request. I'm going to swap out the grips for my favorite Hogue grips ASAP.

...

1858,

Thanks for the kind thoughts, as they, all, served me well, did their duty, never failed, and graced my long life from 20yrs thru 58yrs with not one intrusion and one failed attempt on my life.. BG lost, German Shepherd won..

Thus, since 58, the small herd of Sigs, Beretta, SA, 7 handguns, ironically, but long for the days, again, to have another herd of German Shepherds.. boy & girl, of course

Congrats on ~ a fine combat (extra well-built) 220R.. I know she'll be a life-long (dependable/accurate) friend.. lol, much like the 7 of both, my past German Shepherds and my current small herd of 7 handguns.

Now back to the original movie/post

My best,


Ls

Ps.. get a can for her and ya got the best of all worlds with her.. OMMV

AUT PAX AUT BELLUM

The motto of my past team: The_Gunn

 

[jon_in_wv]

Years ago I shot a P220 at an indoor range and I LOVED it. Years later, when I started actually buying pistols I handled a stainless steel slide model and it just didn't feel or balance the same way. It felt a lot more top heavy. The difference may be small but it is noticeable. A few months ago I found a brand new P220 assembled from German parts at a local store. It has a thin trigger, stamped steel slide, and the plastic mainspring housing. Sweet. My wife took the $800 bucks I spent pretty well I though.

 

[MCMXI]

HA HA!! It's been quite a few months and quite a few rounds since I bought that Carry version. I've been shooting it (and the Combat) fairly regularly over the summer and I couldn't be happier with either of them with the exception of the short triggers which pinch my finger. I ordered a pair of older serrated steel triggers from Grayguns. In typical SIG style, they've run through hundreds of reloads and factory ammunition without a single issue. Just like my original P220, they like 185gr LSWC or 200gr LRNFP as well as standard 230gr FMJ. The only upgrade (other than the triggers) are Trijicon night sights on the Carry. The Combat comes with Meprolight night sights so now I'm trying to decide which I prefer.

 

[MCMXI]

the SRT was developed by Sig to allow the reset of the trigger (in SA) on their 226 Elite to compete with the S&W 4006 for the CHP contract ... the reduction of trigger reset distance really needs advanced training to optimally take advantage of it

I bought a P239 earlier this month, specifically the SAS Gen 2 chambered in 9mm Luger. It's DA/SA with the short reset trigger (SRT). I haven't taken it to the range yet but I did get to play with it. The reset is WAY shorter but don't know if that will translate into a palpable difference during shooting. I did get to put 20 or so rounds through a SIG with the DAK trigger about a week ago. I like that trigger a lot and feel that it'd be ideal on a CC pistol, particularly if you shoot DA revolvers using the DA pull on a regular basis.