New to Loading with XL 650

[Topgunner]

So far, I've got the press with 30-06 and 40sw/10mm conversion kits and RCBS FL 2-die sets for '06 and 357 SIG. (the press was bought from a store with 40sw/10mm conv kit already included)

Can I order the JUST the 357 sig powder funnel that I need from Dillon? Will any other 38/357 funnel work, or is the dimension and profile of the funnel truly caliber specific? I'm assuming that I can use the 40sw casefeed adapter for 357 sig?

I'm assuming that I "need" to get myself crimping dies for these bottlenecked catridges? [I'm not sure why there are 2-die sets vs 3-die sets....]

I'm planning on moving into 45 ACP and 44 magnum and would like to only order the pieces that I truly need. For example 45 ACP and '06 can use the same shell plate IIRC.

I'm also assuming that if I remove the indexer block from the left side of the machine, the press will cease to be progressive, if I so desire.


If anyone has any recommendations on websites or reference books to explain the details of Dillon/Redding/RCBS/Lee dies (what are the important differences) I would truly appreciate it.

Thanks,

 

[Jeeper]

Dillons website has a caliber conversion chart. You can use it to determine what parts you need by going off what parts you already have.

 

[snuffy]

Wow, lots of questions. Look in the back of your 650 manual. There's a caliber conversion chart there for both rifle and pistol.

The case feed adapter is the same for 40 and 357 sig, purple(18076). The powder funnel is 13806, which can also be used for 38 super, 9mm, 9x21 and 9x25. The shellplate is of course the same as the 40, so you save major bucks for not needing that. As far as I can figure, you only need the powder funnel and a set of dies to convert from 40 S&W to 357 sig. However, if you're going to use the dillon measure, you need a powder die to use the funnel in. You CAN use one you already have, BUT I prefere to have one in each die/tool head. Of course you also need another tool head unless you are prepared to change dies out each time you switch over. (major hassle!)

"For example 45 ACP and '06 can use the same shell plate IIRC."
Correct! Use the conversion chart to figure out what else you need as well.

"I'm also assuming that if I remove the indexer block from the left side of the machine, the press will cease to be progressive, if I so desire."
Now THAT I'm not sure about. But my question is WHY? You would have to manually index, if you forget to, you could end up with double charges! For loading test rounds one at a time, I suppose that could be usefull, I dunno, I never thought of it! :banghead:

Since I don't have any dillon dies,(Lee, RCBS, Lyman, and Hornady), I can't answer that. I DO know that the expander die in all my sets,(for pistol), is NOT used. The powder funnel is also the mouth beller in the 650. When used in conjunction with the dillon powder measure, the expander die in most sets is never used.

 

[Rockstar]

Use the RCBS seater/crimper die for seating only. Buy yoself a Lee .357 Sig FCD for crimping.

 

[Topgunner]

OK, what about gages and trimming

I didn't see in the Dillon catalogs or online where they sell individual parts such as powder funnels.

Thanks for pointing out the casefeed adapter color - it was late and I thought I needed an orange one (357 - didn't specify magnum in the chart)

From what I can tell, people who shoot lots of pistol just sort of chuck out a ton of cartridges and go to town without a whole lot of case prep other than inspecting for quality / pressure signs. 357 SIG bullets don't have a cannelure for roll crimping, so do I use a taper crimp?

I'm assuming I need something like a Wilson case gage to check GO/NO GO once I resize and deprime the rifle brass. This is where I get a little confused. If you're supposed to resize/deprime, then gage, trim (slow and expensive) and clean - before actually loading, what's the use of having a progressive reloading press? Is there an initial phase where the brass gets "detail processed" and then you're good for a few loadings without trim & gage (if you're experienced and only shooting light target loads)? This also brings me to ask about Full Length dies vs Neck sizing dies vs (IIRC) small base dies.
When to use which dies?

I know, it's a lot of questions, but I've read a lot of manuals and it's not quite clear....

Thanks for the informative replies.

 

[Rockstar]

The RCBS .357 Sig seater/crimp die roll crimps; you'll need a cannelure for that. That's why I recommended the Lee FCD. Also recommend that you use AA#9 or some other powder that pretty much fills the case, as there's not a lot of neck bearing area for neck tension. You don't want a feedramp-induced setback, or you'll have a very sad day with your .357 Sig.

If you use an RCBS X die for sizing, you only have to trim your bottleneck rifle brass once. I do use a Wilson case gage for setting up my sizing dies for bottleneck rifle cases. You neck size when you're using brass that's been shot from a bolt rifle, for the bolt rifle that the brass was shot in. You FL size any brass that wasn't first shot in your bolt rifle, or for any reloading that you do for semi-auto rifles.

 

[snuffy]

sacrifice

Some things have to be sacrificed when using a progressive like the 650. For blasting ammo in my bushy AR, I do no case prep at all! Other than tumbling, then spraying with RCBS spray lube, they just run through the Hornady FL sizer, and on through the rest of the steps.

What you can do is, use a universal decapper,(in a seperate single stage loader), then do all the case prep before tossing them in the case feeder. It's not generally recommended to trim BEFORE sizing, but in this case you'd defeat the speed of the 650 if you sized, then trimmed.

Serious target shooters DO use progressives. The best I've heard of is this Tubb fella, IIRC David,? He uses a modified 550 dillon to load his camp perry winning loads.

"From what I can tell, people who shoot lots of pistol just sort of chuck out a ton of cartridges and go to town without a whole lot of case prep other than inspecting for quality / press"ure signs."

That's very correct as far as my IPSC and IDPA handgun ammo goes. Tumble, then run 'em through. It's short range fast shooting, so precision is not called for. Whatever headstamps happen to be in the mix, gets loaded. 40 s&w, 45 acp, .357 etc.

 

[Topgunner]

Excellent - almost there

Yah, I noticed the part numbers for individual parts in the caliber conversion chart about 10 min after I went off line.

Rockstar,

So, does the RCBS seater die also crimp the case (depending on how I set it)?

I was just on Lee's website, and I couldn't find ANY crimp dies for 357 sig.

Excellent idea about AA #9 - I like what I've read about the powder volume, the low pressures, and (especially) the speed!

I've been asking a lot of questions specifically because I don't want to have a spectacular KB with my beloved H&K USP compact with the LEM.

I'm beginning to firmly grasp the bolt vs semiauto resizing requirements. Let me at this time ask about crimped-in primers on military brass. I guess I need to ream/swage or otherwise open up the primer pocket in order to reliably seat new primers.

Snuffy,

I'm understanding what you're getting at with the pistol brass for blasting. Shove a load of mixed brass through the press with a toolhead that's dedicated for depriming, then tumble, then ka-chunk it all through the press and not worry too much about it. (This is taking into account case inspection and relatively light target loads). Any media that gets stuck in the flash hole will get punched out with the sizing/decapping die in the fully set up toolhead.

I'm learning a lot, and this is going to be cool once I get it all set up, the weather gets cooler, and I figure out where to order my stuff in mega-bulk quantities. (Yeah, I saw the sticky thread on this)

Thanks so much to everyone for helping me learn a lot and quickly get up to speed. Speed follows safety and accuracy in both shooting and reloading.

Topgunner

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

I decap with a universal deprimer on a lee hand press while I watch TV. ~30 large pistol primers before I have to remove the shellholder and dump the spent primers out of the hollow ram.

Then you could tumble and run it through a progressive normally. Leave the decapping pin in the sizer die to punch out any tumbling media that gets stuck in the flash hole.

HTH,

Andy

 

[snuffy]

TG, here's the url for the lee site, where you'll find the Lee FCD for 357 sig. It's in the pistol die section about 3/4 of the way to the bottom. They just recently started making one.

You've got the idea right for pistol, though I don't bother decapping before tumbling. Tumbling don't do much for cleaning primer pockets, I see no need to anyway. I only fuss with primer pocket cleaning with target grade rifle ammo, or for hunting shells.

"Let me at this time ask about crimped-in primers on military brass. I guess I need to ream/swage or otherwise open up the primer pocket in order to reliably seat new primers."

Yup the primer crimp HAS to be removed. You can get a swager from RCBS, or Dillon. Or a primer pocket uniformer will work. If nothing else, the neck chamfering tool will work okay.

 

[Rockstar]

Yep, your RCBS seater/crimp die seats and crimps. The instructions that come with the dies are pretty easy-to-follow. They'll show you how to set the die for crimping and seating. I also prefer seating and crimping in a separate station.

 

[Topgunner]

Great.

Well, I picked up an old jeweler's bench (free ) and got the press securely bolted down onto its new home. The bench is light, but it's screwed into a huge 8' x 10' bookcase loaded with crap - so it's rock steady.
[Photo will be posted to that thread sometime soon]
I also bought a Frankford Arsenal vibratory tumbler and some walnut media, so I cleaned some cases for 30 min, and then my GF trimmed some cases down with a file once we figured out that 2.484" = 2 30/64" on the calipers graduated in 64ths of an inch. My friend let me borrow his RCBS case trimmer that he never uses (HMMMmmmm, I could tell by the rust under the layer of cat hair and dust ) and his 5-0-5 powder scale. So I retrimmed all the cases (they were almost all spot-on ) and loaded up a primer tube with WLR and the powder dispenser with Hodgdon H4350.

It would have been nice if I had cranked down the magnum powder measure before trying to set the powder charge since then powder wouldn't have rained down all over the shell plate. :banghead:
I probably also could have waited until after I calibrated the powder bar to load the primer magazine, but NOoooo. :banghead:

I saw some cool knobs on Ebay to replace the powder bar adjustment screw - I'm already tempted.
The Dillon XL 650 video showed the powder bar having a spring wrapped around it and the funnel neck - is that an old system, superceded by the failsafe bar, or am I missing that?

Powder load is 56.8 grains (10% less that 62 - Hodgdon basic reloader manual 2005, pg 21)

I'm using Speer 150 grain FMJ-BT #2018. I'm aware that this is a substitution - someone check me on this.

Cases are headstamped "R-P 30-06 SPRG"

After I finally got all of that set up, I lubed up my 10 cases and proceeded to run them through the press. Has anyone noticed that their cases hang up on their way from the tube to station one? This seems to be an intermittent problem for me. Depriming and resizing went smoothly, repriming was fine (there is a fine circular scoring visible on every seated primer - does anyone else observe this?), charging with powder was OK, the powder check was set properly and functioning fine, though the bullet seating was almost at the top of the cannelure, so I backed the seater off a 1/2 turn and that seemed fine. Maybe I ought to have checked that earlier, and without a shell plate full of other cases. I think that readjusting the bullet seat at this point would probably risk overcharging the case in station 3.

But, pressing on (Ha! Get it! Pressing on? ) I got all of the cases smoothly, and hopefully properly, loaded. I can see how a progressive press could be a real challenge for someone who has NO idea what is going on and zero mechanical aptitude. I managed to not blow myself up in a graduate chemistry lab for 10 years, though other people surely tried to do it for me, and I think I pulled through OK. I wiped the lube from the cases, and then wiped them completely dry with a paper towel lightly moistened with carburetor cleaner, carefully avoiding the primer area.

The cases were all below the max. C.O.L. and the case necks and COL were all slightly shorter as compared to Korean surplus 30-06 (headstamped "K A 7 3") that easily chambers.

The newly reloaded cartridges were difficult to chamber (I tested 3) and I couldn't see any rifling marks on the bullets (which suggested to me that there is sufficient freebore), so I blackened one with a marker and chambered it with a slight shove on the bolt.

There's a slight lengthwise scratch on the neck, but what I considered significant was the ring extending halfway around the base near the web - maybe 1/4" up from the extractor groove. There is also light, even removal of marker all the way around the case shoulder. It's that last bit where the cartridge resists chambering - I guess I need to turn down the FL resizing die another 1/8 turn or so? It was adjusted to contact the shell plate at full elevation....

I'm using an RCBS FL 2-die set (14801).

Has anyone experimented with squaring the dies in the press as per Sierra Handgun Reloading Manual, 4th ed. pg 139?

Does anyone unload their powder and primers, or do you just leave the press all set up with labels indicating powder and primers?


Thanks again for all of the helpful info.

Topgunner

 

[Jeeper]

I saw some cool knobs on Ebay to replace the powder bar adjustment screw - I'm already tempted.

Those are nice. You can go to lowes and make your own for like $2

The Dillon XL 650 video showed the powder bar having a spring wrapped around it and the funnel neck - is that an old system, superceded by the failsafe bar, or am I missing that?

That is the old system that uses the spring

 

[Topgunner]

Adventures in reloading

I finished reloading 120 rounds of 30-06 and I'm in the process of finishing reloading several hundred rounds of 357 Sig. I figured I would share some notes and observations for other people new to loading who may benefit from the describing my efforts.

The first ten rounds of 30-06 went off just fine, and gave me a nice ~1.5" group at 50 yds without really trying very hard. I had one stuck case that I think has brightness around the base, so I'm going to have it checked out by knowledgable handloader.



I converted everything over from 30-06 to 357 Sig, and in the process, the ejector wire got hung up on the ejected cartridge chute and was slightly bent. I bent it back.

I measured out 13.1 grains of Accurate Arms #9 and filled a primed case so that I could quickly adjust the powder checking system and use that to quickly rough-adjust the powder die. The powder die measures 3-20 grains, and there were 10 full turns from beginning to end, so that was 2 grains per turn. I set the die to the minimum and then counted 5 turns and was only a few grains off. This really helped speed things along and avoided over-filling the brass like I did when setting up for 30-06.

Some of the Speer brass that I have has very small flash holes and the primer decapping pin on my RCBS FL resizing die keeps getting stuck in the case and pulled out of the die. This can stop operation of the press if the pin is jutting far enough out of the bottom of the case.

There are some feeding problems with the primer system even with Winchester small pistol primers, and an unprimed case will get filled with powder and proceed to let it pour out the bottom while the case rotates around in the shell plate. This is really annoying, as the powder needs to be cleaned up and it sticks to all of the oiled and greased parts of the press.

The shellplate bolt needs to be carefully adjusted, because overtightening leads to binding of the press, but leaving it too loose allows the shellplate to jump forward onto the index ball and spray powder out of the filled cases in stations 2 and 3.

Cases really need to be firmly inserted into station 1 so that the case will enter the die and not stop the press with a THUNK!

I've never reloaded 357 Sig before, and I adjusted station 2 so that the powder die gives a slight bell to the case mouth, otherwise I can't place a bullet in station 4 to seat it. A good, solid crimp is needed to hold the bullet in place, and the COL of 1.14" means that the ogive of the bullet is nearly at the casemouth. (Hornady 124 grain FMJ-flat nose)

Cases get stuck in station 5 when they hit the ejector wire, perhaps because of the bending incident, slight chipping of the shellplate due to sudden press stoppages, or both.

I bought extra primer pick-up tubes powder dies, and a tollhead stand. Pre-set toolheads will really help shorten cartridge conversion time.

I also got a Frankford Arsenal media separator, which vastly simplified retreiving my brass from the tumbler.

Lightly greasing the top of the indexer block really helps smooth out press operation.

 

[jdkelly]

Just a Warning!

Topgunner,

If you are new to reloading and are starting with an XL-650 you might want to start with a low pressure handgun round. Both the handgun rounds you are starting with are high pressure and leave little room for error.


Respectfully,

jdkelly